Batteries!

[bergmen]

Nonsense! Much of the lead used for battery manufacture anywhere is recycled and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's easier to make a high purity lead from "old" lead than it is from lead ore. The purity specification for any lead used for manufacture of electrolytic devices is very high and the is NO chemical difference of lead purified from recycled scrap and virgin lead from concentrate.

One manufacturer may have higher (or lower) material specifications and one physical design or chemical composition may be superior but it has nothing to do with whether the materials are recycled or not.

Not nonsense at all.

Japan uses NEW materials we use recycled.

I didn't say the lead mattered but the cells do and they fail.

Believe what you want, talk to someone (who's knowledgeable) in the battery manufacturing industry.

Recycled material can be weaker and I'll give you an example.

I was representing a company that made valves and fittings for pool pumps.

they used new raw material for all their plastic fittings.

Their competition used recycled/regrind plastic in their fittings, and their fitting threads were not holding and popping out of the pump volutes and causing leaks.

The ONLY difference was they used regrind/recycled plastic and the company I represented used NEW plastic

The ONLY difference between the Japanese batteries and the USA batteries is that the USA ones used recycled materials.

Over 50 years working on vehicles (some years as a professional) and you are the first person I've ever heard say this.

People (including me) are asking for any substantiation to this and without it this is nothing more than an opinion (and a bad one at that).

As a Senior Mechanical Engineer designing injection molded plastic parts for a living, "recycled" material is only used if and when it will not compromise the integrity of the part being molded. There are specific guidlelines for the use of regrind (percentage and type) published by the polymer sources and these are strictly adhered to. In our case it is a PC/ABS blend with an allowable 25% regrind content.

I specify virgin (new) material with an acceptable amount of regrind to the specifications. Parts using the specified amount of regrind as part of the composition are indistinguishable from parts molded from virgin. Some polymers cannot be molded using regrind since it compromises function, again part of the polymer formulators specification.

Your example of a "failure" of the fitting parts you mention has nothing to do with the fact that "regrind" was used. It may very well have been due to inappropriate use of "regrind" outside the specifications of the polymer manufacturer. As I indicate above, properly formulated plastics using the specified limit of regrind are indistinguishable from parts molded with virgin material. Otherwise we would not allow it and responsible manufacturers wouldn't either.

So this claim is bogus without authoritative substantiation. Prove it.

Dan

 

[ionbeam]

I was going to let the recycled lead issue die but since it has been brought up again -- and it's Friday.......

Anybody that thinks Primary newly mined lead is more pure or better than recycled lead should read about ore mining, smelting and refining. The miners do not pick up rocks of pure lead and melt them. Lead ore is mixed into a matrix of all kinds of rocks and minerals, plus the lead itself is diffused other elements and minerals. When mining lead, copper and gold the mined ore often only yields 1 lb of lead/copper for every 1,000 to 10,000 pounds of tailings. There is a huge amount of processing to purify the raw ore.

Recycled lead is going to start at ~95% purity, perhaps mixed with traces of things like calcium and antimony which are easy to remove in only one electroplating step (another process to read about, and how it purifies metallic elements). These are some of the elements that the battery makers actually add to purified lead to make the batteries achieve better life and function.

And, FWIW, I wrote to several major battery technical departments and actually asked them about the difference. This is typical of the responses I got, one is from YUASA and the other one is from a battery manufacturer that sells batteries under several top national brand names. I can send you the actual email if you need it validated.

Cooper Tammy ([email protected]) 5/07/14

Good morning Alan,

Thank you for your recent email inquiry.

To answer your question about recycled lead, It is not true that batteries manufactured with recycled lead will not last as long. We use a combination of both Primary and recycled lead in our AGM Batteries. 95% of North America uses recycled lead.

Thank you,

Tammy Cooper

Jason Smith ([email protected]) 5/07/14

The only product that virgin lead is not always needed in is in the automotive battery products.

Thanks,

Jason Smith
Manager of Customer Service
and Technical Support
MK Battery
714 922-2014 (Direct)

While I have seen it reported that Shaklee natural vitamins are far superior to 'manufactured' vitamins, science says that there is no difference. While I have seen it reported by some that Primary lead is far superior to 'recycled' lead, I say that there is no difference; 99.9%(1) pure Primary lead is the same as 99.9% recycled lead. Be assured that battery makers want a specific purity number regardless of source.

I've done my research, what did your industry research show?

(1) In industry where purity is important they refer to 99.9% purity as "one nine", 99.99% as "two nines", 99.999% as "three nines" and so on. I often buy 5 nines nitrogen. You can buy 5 nines copper for electronics. You can buy any purity number of nines as you need for your lead, it just costs more.

 

[Fred W]

My research shows that Amsoil full synthetic oil is 32.7% slipperier than other oils.

That a turbine shaped inlet will swirl the intake mixture and provide huge gains in performance, drive-ability and fuel mileage. So much so that the big 3 automakers have suppressed this valuable information from the public.

And that, you too! can have improve stamina, length and girth to make your lady satisfied with just a single pill taken each day.

 

[ionbeam]

Why Fred, how cynical of you. :lol:

 

[Fred W]

Moi? Cynical?

(1) In industry where purity is important they refer to 99.9% purity as "one nine", 99.99% as "two nines", 99.999% as "three nines" and so on. I often buy 5 nines nitrogen. You can buy 5 nines copper for electronics. You can buy any purity number of nines as you need for your lead, it just costs more.

On a more serious note, I too run into these gas purity standards in my line of work, but for us the purity is typically applied to our Helium gas, for it's ability to remain gaseous at very low temps. Many other gasses freeze solid before pure helium even liquifies. He is currently considerably more expensive than N (which we also use) duie to the old laws of supply and demand. We are surrounded by Nitrogen, but have to go underground to mine helium in any appreciable concentrations.

The kicker on the five 9's helium is that, due to the manufacturing and handling processes most run of the mill bottled helium gas is derived from previously liquified helium, which means that in all likelihood it is already several 9's if not five. But it costs us a pretty penny to have the certified five 9's, which we really only need for certain applications.

Point being that I doubt we need pure lead to make a freaking battery

 

[Denver_FJR]

...
Point being that I doubt we need pure lead to make a freaking battery

Some folks think purity matters, and I'm not just talking prom night

The website with the original link appears down but here's Google cache of same, VanassePaper2010Final_17.pdf

 

[Fred W]

Good link. Thanks

 

[RossKean]

On the "nines" purity; 99.99% is generally considered to be four nines, not two. Expressed as the decimal fraction percent (0.9999).

With respect to the required purity for metals in batteries of all sorts, very high purity materials are needed. It does not surprise me that battery failures are often a function of sub-standard materials. It is relatively easy to produce very pure metals electrolytically although the cost escalates as the purity gets higher. As we have said here (many times), recycled and re-manufactured materials (lead or plastic) can be as pure and can perform as well as virgin materials. If there is a failure of non-OEM batteries (not been established), it is a function of poor design, poor QA/QC or inadequate material specification (purity and/or physical structure).

Note: While many ores are fairly low grade and that is one of the reasons why some metals are expensive. (Demand and ease of refining also greatly affect costs) Gold ores are often measured in fractions of an ounce per tonne of ore. Copper ores are fractions of a percent to a few percent. Lead ores are often quite a bit higher. Some iron ores are almost pure iron (oxide).

 

[RadioHowie]

Yeah, interesting read. Makes me think, I pay (rounded #) $100 for a battery that "may" last 4 years if I'm lucky.

Would I pay $400 for a battery that "would" last 20 years? Would anyone ever assume they were going to keep a vehicle with a particular battery in it for 20 years? Interestingly, I've got a Honda Del Sol, with BTW a DEAD battery in it, that will be 20 years old in 2 months, when the 2015 models officially arrive. In retrospect, would I have paid, 19+ years ago an extra $300 for the car if I knew, without doubt, the battery would last 20 years? Don't know, as I never, ever imagined I'd still have the same old car 20 years later.

But the FJR is just about to turn 11 years old. And I WOULD have paid more for a battery I positively knew would last 10 years without fail.

The battery manufacturers apparently understand the situation with VRLA batteries...now it's just time to see if anyone's gonna step up to the plate and "do the right thing."

All in all, the above link was certainly an interesting read, this thread has been an interesting mental exercise, the two quotes The Professor provided from the battery folks don't jibe with the white paper in the link, and, lastly, SoCalFJR1300 deserves a tip-o-the-hat for his stance on lead purity in aftermarket batteries and sticking to his guns throughout this thread.

Now, where can I get me a "5-nines" battery for my Del Sol? It's time I drove it again, for the first time in 5 freakin' years!

 

[RossKean]

The comments that were made said that battery life (or lack thereof) was a function of the use of recycled materials; nothing else. If it could be said that recycled materials (lead, in particular) are inherently less pure than virgin materials then I would say that the comments might be correct. The fact is that recycled lead is (or can be) just as pure and chemically indistinguishable from lead produced from freshly mined ore.

 

[Fred W]

Yeah, that's what I took away from it too. Not sure how or why the author jumped to the conclusion that virgin lead was typically more pure, but he also states that recycled lead can be made five 9's pure and that is the purity standard, as tested using his out gassing measurement technique.

For those not aware, a VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) battery is what we have in our FJRs. VRLAs can be either Gel Cells or Absorbed Glass Matt (AGM) construction. The FJR (and most other modern motorcycles) have AGM, VRLA batteries.

There is one other section that he mentions regarding VRLA life, that if the hydrogen gas can be contained in the battery case, (and a catalyst is maintained inside) the hydrogen will recombine with free oxygen in the battery to form water, thereby maintaining chemical balance and longer overall life. All VRLA batteries are "sealed". The "valve" is a pressure relief that only vents the case when the battery is being charged, one would infer that to be "vigorously". So those folks who keep their AGM batteries on a charger for long periods of time may be shortening the life of that battery considerably.

 

[ionbeam]

Denver's paper is actually pretty old and technology has moved forward since it was released. I have read that paper several times since its release. Out of all those words that basically say battery lead needs to be pure for battery longevity it boils down to one paragraph.

Secondary lead is the name for lead that has come from recycled batteries, which is then smelted and purified to remove impurities so that the resulting lead is 99.99% pure. However there are trace impurities that are left in the lead and these leftovers are what cause the problems that we are talking about; it is actually a question of the specific leftovers. Lead of a higher purity level is available, such as five “9’s” or 99.999% pure, and it generally is produced from primary lead sources. Primary lead is virgin lead that comes directly from the mines and is then smelted and purified. Some mines produce leads of higher purity than others and it is also possible to remove impurities from recycled lead to the five “9’s” level. Generally, primary lead is more expensive than secondary lead, and certainly the higher the level of purity the more expensive the lead is.

Battery manufacturers know what level purity they need for lead. They can pay more for Primary lead to get 5 nines or they can pay more for secondary lead that is 5 nines. Primary lead IS NOT VIRGIN, it is highly contaminated with other metals diffused in it. It is only through the massive ore processing system that the Primary lead is made pure.

If battery makers choose to use less than 5 nines (or what ever the real number is) they are knowingly making an inferior battery. Yuasa says that they use both primary and secondary lead and they say that recycled lead does not hurt their battery life which should mean that they know how many nines they need and use lead of the correct purity.

Let me go out on a limb and suggest that a company that wants to stay in business and do well does not knowingly make a product that barely meets minimum expectations. That is a dangerous game where warranty costs and reputation damage will undo the business PDQ. Why don't domestic battery makers offer a premium battery line that is 'long life' and offer it for a premium price that covers the cost of Primary lead? Don't mistake an extended warranty battery for an extended life battery.


Primary lead may be virgin as in never used, but it is anything but pure.

Mining 1

Mining 2

 

[supertankerm60a3]

My battery is now three years old and has NO lead in it at all and only weighs about 24 oz..

 

[ionbeam]

My battery is now three years old and has NO lead in it at all and only weighs about 24 oz..

And you get away with it because you live in southern Ca. So, how pure does the Li have to be?

 

[RaYzerman19]

Regardless of purity, all the aftermarket manufacturers' products are what most of us are interested in. They will vary, as well as thickness of plates, design against effects of vibration, etc. Pick your poison..... BUT....

Regardless of what you pick (I use aftermarket Yuasas), a lot of guys don't know about battery charge and how to maintain them. Simple really, full charge is 12.7, half charge is 12.4-12.5, and a battery is theoretically dead at 11.9-ish. From my readings, it is generally accepted that a battery will start to degrade if allowed to go below half charge a half dozen times. Your mission is to not let it get there if you can, but if it does, charge the darned thing ASAP. This will prevent sulphation from advancing or at least keep it from happening much longer. Most don't have voltmeters attached that tell them where they're at..... leave a bike sitting for a week with the parasitic drains we have, and you're getting into risky territory..... the answer, if it's gonna sit for a while, plug that baby into a charger/maintainer..

From all the battery tales I hear and questions I ask about how folks maintain them, they do not realize the charge state and they never maintained them to the degree that would minimize deterioration. When somebody tells me their battery only lasted two years, either you live in a really hot area (heat kills batteries) or you didn't maintain it properly, or some combination of the two. Chances are if you had a voltmeter attached, you would be seeing some symptoms before a battery fails. Most batteries don't fail suddenly unless an internal bus bar cracked IMHO.

Simple then, maintain your battery and move further north.