erabuds/ear plugs?

[SkipS]

Rode 100 miles with them yesterday. Switch on,reduction in noise.Switch off, increase of noise. Its pretty simple.And since you dont own this pair, or have listened inside my helmet there is no way in hell you are qualified to comment on how effective they are.

 

[BigOgre]

This seems like a good place to throw in a link to this past discussion. It's also looks like a beautiful stretch of weather here in the Northeast to go do some riding.

 

[Bill Lumberg]

I still use moldex foam with integrated helmet comms. Regardless of helmet, i get a headache over distance with no plugs. If I’m in a helmet with no comms, I use shure 215k monitors. At around 300 dollars a pop, I’m considering not replacing my helmet comms when they wear out. Of course, I just ordered a B901 for the wife’s helmet.

 

[jblanken64]

I've been curious about noise cancelling headphones for motorcycle use as well. I use some Bose over the ear headphones here at the office occasionally and when I fly. They do lower the perceived noise level. My question has been been: Are they lowering the actual sound pressure level at the ear or just introducing frequency cancellation? I know that my foam earplugs lower the SPL, but would noise cancelling earbuds? I admit to having done no research on the issue, but this is the question that comes up whenever I think of buying some of these. The next question is about how they would fit under my helmet (most earbuds that I've tried suck in this regard).

 

[Uncle Hud]

My guess is they're using frequency cancellation, but wouldn't that also decrease sound wave pressures? I mean, the sound waves are being cancelled, so that means they no longer exist, right?

To noob SkipS: I don't own a Tesla or a nuclear reactor, but I sure as hell know how they work. Don't be an asshole, new guy; that type behavior is reserved for those of us with more than 1,000 posts. In addition, Fred W knows a lot, about a lot. And (as frustrating as it is) he's almost always correct.

 

[rbentnail]

FWIW I tried noise canceling earbuds and found they gave tremendous headaches every single time. Having little understanding of them I can't explain why, maybe fred knows

.

Actually I have to agree with the new guy: even with the mic outside the helmet there was significant noise "reduction" in my ear.

 

[Fred W]

If the microphone is outside of your helmet it will sense the noise there and apply cancellation for it. You will hear that as a partial reduction in the total noise level. Noise cancellation works by applying sound waves of the same frequency, but opposite polarity from the source. The effect, when it works, is to cancel the physical sound pressure waves before they reach your ear drum. The hazard is that if the correction is applied incorrectly you are potentially increasing the total sound pressure reaching the eardrum.

The problem for this application is that the noise from outside the helmet is not what primarily causes hearing damage. Noise from outside the helmet is already well attenuated by the helmet, padding, etc. The greater amount of damage for helmet wearers is done by the booming low frequency noise that results from wind hitting the helmet shell, and being introduced into the helmet at the open bottom. The amount of this noise will be affected by many variables; the helmet design, windshield height and shape, your torso height, and how much your noggin sticks up into that turbulent wind.

Because that noise is generated inside of the helmet the microphone outside doesnt know about it and cant help cancel it. The best way to reduce this noise is to either prevent it from happening, or to wear highly attenuating ear plugs that will reduce the noise to safe levels. In Ear monitors typically do not reduce the noise level enough.

Everyones tolerance of noise level varies. I have friends that never wear any hearing protection and claim they have no problem. I have constant tinnitus already and am only comfortable with 30 dB or greater attenuating plugs.

Your mileage may vary. They are your ears and you should do whatever you feel comfortable exposing them to. Just be aware that once the ringing starts for real, it never stops.

As for the ERA, well, that is an entirely different type of painful noise.

 

[bruinFJRguy]

After much hesitation and debate over which were the best plugs for the $, I bought these Audiomate hi-fi plugs for $17 off Amazon.

Audiomate https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079J55W51/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_BZvmBb6JP62TQ

I didn't want to spend $30 on Eargasms. I also didn't want a vastly inferior product for half the money. I also didn't want to spend more than I needed to (i.e. more than $30) for something of marginally better functionality. I was skeptical of all Amazon reviews.

I will say I am quite pleased. I just wet my ear canals with water slightly to help the plugs seal. I can hear my Sena SMH10 just fine, and I don't hear wind noise. These are vastly superior to the Laserlites I've used for years.

 

[SkipS]

My guess is they're using frequency cancellation, but wouldn't that also decrease sound wave pressures? I mean, the sound waves are being cancelled, so that means they no longer exist, right?
To noob SkipS: I don't own a Tesla or a nuclear reactor, but I sure as hell know how they work. Don't be an asshole, new guy; that type behavior is reserved for those of us with more than 1,000 posts. In addition, Fred W knows a lot, about a lot. And (as frustrating as it is) he's almost always correct.

So Fred W says "There is no way in hell they are cancelling the noise inside your helmet." ( basically calling me a liar) after I post how I like them and they removed a chunk of wind noise, and I respond using the exact same terminology saying " And since you don't own this pair, or have listened inside my helmet there is no way in hell you are qualified to comment on how effective they are." And Im an Asshole? thats the way it works here?

 

[SkipS]

If the microphone is outside of your helmet it will sense the noise there and apply cancellation for it. You will hear that as a partial reduction in the total noise level. Noise cancellation works by applying sound waves of the same frequency, but opposite polarity from the source. The effect, when it works, is to cancel the physical sound pressure waves before they reach your ear drum. The hazard is that if the correction is applied incorrectly you are potentially increasing the total sound pressure reaching the eardrum.
The problem for this application is that the noise from outside the helmet is not what primarily causes hearing damage. Noise from outside the helmet is already well attenuated by the helmet, padding, etc. The greater amount of damage for helmet wearers is done by the booming low frequency noise that results from wind hitting the helmet shell, and being introduced into the helmet at the open bottom. The amount of this noise will be affected by many variables; the helmet design, windshield height and shape, your torso height, and how much your noggin sticks up into that turbulent wind.

Because that noise is generated inside of the helmet the microphone outside doesnt know about it and cant help cancel it. The best way to reduce this noise is to either prevent it from happening, or to wear highly attenuating ear plugs that will reduce the noise to safe levels. In Ear monitors typically do not reduce the noise level enough.

Everyones tolerance of noise level varies. I have friends that never wear any hearing protection and claim they have no problem. I have constant tinnitus already and am only comfortable with 30 dB or greater attenuating plugs.

Your mileage may vary. They are your ears and you should do whatever you feel comfortable exposing them to. Just be aware that once the ringing starts for real, it never stops.

As for the ERA, well, that is an entirely different type of painful noise.

all good points and interesting. I looked closely at the noise canceling ear buds i recieved for fathers day that I posted about. I do not see a microphone hole in the lanyard or on off switch area. I do see that each earpiece has two tiny holes in them. One on the outside of the earpiece facing out, on on the top of the ear piece facing up, I believe these are the mics where the earphone are sampling the noise. Not gonna argue the effectiveness anymore. for under 40 very impressed, but I need to do more than 100 miles in them to get a longer exposure evaluation. I also use a windjammerII wind sock on my helmet which cuts back on noise inside the helmet and I have a California scientific shorty windshield which also decreased my wind noise. Maybe that is why they work as good as I believe they do.

 

[Fred W]

Skip,

In both of my prior posts I explicitly said if the microphone was outside the helmet it wont work. Thats because up to this point in time that is the way all of these inexpensive noise cancelling earphones have been configured. I have never seen ones that have the cancellation sensors in the ear piece. If they actually do, they would have a chance at working.

Looking at the link you supplied it appeared the microphone was in the switch on the lanyard like all the other ones have. They even have a photo of the switch and talk about the microphone and being able to enable it to hear normally. If the microphones are in the ear pieces that is not well represented. And is kind of dumb since that would be an attribute

Please accept my apology for jumping to conclusions. If these have the mikes in the ear pieces they very well be the next best thing since sliced bread. And at that price we may all want to snap some up

 

[WBill]

Does anybody else see the irony in using earplugs to block outside noise from the inner ears, only to substitute music, etc., in its place, delivered directly to the tympanic membranes? Both will damage hearing permanently. WBill

 

[someguy]

Got these for a Fathers day gift. fit fine under the helmet and the Electronic noise canceling works surprisingly well for the price. Took away a good chunk of wind noise.The sound quality is way better than I expected. Very happy with them,way better than the skull candys I was using and not that much more money. <a href='https://www.amazon.com/TaoTronics-Cancelling-Headphones-Awareness-Microphone/dp/B0734XD8B5/ref=gp_aw_ybh_a_14?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=QCXX4RSVVM7CZZVZBS6P'>https://www.amazon.com/TaoTronics-Cancelling-Headphones-Awareness-Microphone/dp/B0734XD8B5/ref=gp_aw_ybh_a_14?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=QCXX4RSVVM7CZZVZBS6P</a>

interesting.

curious if they still work if not charged???

and how they fit under your helmet

 

[SkipS]

Skip,
In both of my prior posts I explicitly said if the microphone was outside the helmet it wont work. Thats because up to this point in time that is the way all of these inexpensive noise cancelling earphones have been configured. I have never seen ones that have the cancellation sensors in the ear piece. If they actually do, they would have a chance at working.

Looking at the link you supplied it appeared the microphone was in the switch on the lanyard like all the other ones have. They even have a photo of the switch and talk about the microphone and being able to enable it to hear normally. If the microphones are in the ear pieces that is not well represented. And is kind of dumb since that would be an attribute

Please accept my apology for jumping to conclusions. If these have the mikes in the ear pieces they very well be the next best thing since sliced bread. And at that price we may all want to snap some up

if the mic is in the switch/lanyard where the ANC is, it has no mic hole. There is a mic hole in the volume up/ down/ pause/answer control but that also gets tucked up inside the helmet so if that is where the sampling is done it would sample noise inside the helmet. Thank you for your insight on this.

 

[SkipS]

Got these for a Fathers day gift. fit fine under the helmet and the Electronic noise canceling works surprisingly well for the price. Took away a good chunk of wind noise.The sound quality is way better than I expected. Very happy with them,way better than the skull candys I was using and not that much more money. <a href='https://www.amazon.com/TaoTronics-Cancelling-Headphones-Awareness-Microphone/dp/B0734XD8B5/ref=gp_aw_ybh_a_14?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=QCXX4RSVVM7CZZVZBS6P'>https://www.amazon.com/TaoTronics-Cancelling-Headphones-Awareness-Microphone/dp/B0734XD8B5/ref=gp_aw_ybh_a_14?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=QCXX4RSVVM7CZZVZBS6P</a>

interesting.

curious if they still work if not charged???

and how they fit under your helmet

They fit under my helmet better than the Scull Candy Ink'd buds I was using. Those would lose their seal periodically and would get knocked out 1 out of every three times I put the helmet on ,losing all base and sometimes one ear completely .These don't lose there seal when i put my helmet on, and I have not knocked one out putting the helmet on yet. I don't know if they work with no charge yet because I charged them after I used them for three days and they still had power. I have only put about 150 total miles on them since I got them, about 4 hours of helmet use and another three hours with just my phone.

 

[Knifemaker]

Does anybody else see the irony in using earplugs to block outside noise from the inner ears, only to substitute music, etc., in its place, delivered directly to the tympanic membranes? Both will damage hearing permanently. WBill

What matters here is the total SPL your ears are exposed to. (and how long the exposure lasts) If you reduce the amount of noise going to your ear by using earplugs, you don't need to have your music turned up as loud to hear it. Those that have helmet speakers for communication usually are not listening to it constantly. But if they were not wearing earplugs they'd need to turn up the volume to hear over the other ambient noise.
Think of being in a room filled with 100 people all taking at once, loud enough that to hear the person in front of you talking they'd have to raise their voice. But suddenly 1/2 the people in the room stop talking. The total decibels your ear is exposed to is reduced so that the person in front of you doesn't have to shout for you to hear them now. Get the entire room to stop talking and that person just needs to whisper for you to hear them.

This is what happens when you use noise canceling earbuds, or ones that just reduce outside sounds, you can lower the volume of your music and still hear it.

However you can be correct, as it's still possible for someone to listen to loud music and do damage to their hearing. But those that at least make attempts to reduce the total level of what they are exposed to are less likely to have damage done compared to those that do nothing.

https://www.isvr.co.uk/workplace/motorcycle-noise.htm

https://dangerousdecibels.org/education/information-center/decibel-exposure-time-guidelines/

 

[Fred W]

What knifemaker is aptly describing is the hazard of using in ear monitors that do not provide a high degree of sound attenuation. Our ears are capable of detecting music fidelity as a function of the music (signal) to noise. If the background level of noise increases it takes a greater amount of music sound loudness to be able to discriminate the music clearly, and to be enjoyable.

The use of relatively high attenuating ear plugs (30 dB or greater) means that all sound is being attenuated by a factor of 1000 to 1. That means that the noise is attenuated by that much and the music is attenuated by that much. Regardless of how high you crank up the tunes, 1000x attenuation means that sound level will be safe

On the flip side, even the best ear buds only attenuate noise by ~20 dB. The dB scale is logarithmic, and 20 dB is equivalent to 100:1. Still a good amount of attenuation, but an order of magnitude less than 30 dB.

At 20dB the harmful outside noise may be well controlled and not objectionable , but the noise level is 10 times higher, meaning the music needs to be played at a 10 times higher level to the ear drum to reach the same SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio). The level that will be coming out of those in ear monitors is indeed very small, but because it is directly applied through the unattenuated ear canal to the ear drum will be more damaging.

Its a situation I have tried to describe here often, but is mostly not well understood. People think that because the noise is comfortably surpressed, and the music sounds clearer, probably because it is easy to increase the SNR above the standard without creating distortion, that it must be better. But it is actually more damaging to your hearing than the crappier sounding music you get through 30 dB ear plugs.

 

[Uncle Hud]

I understand your explanation, Fred W; don't despair.

Custom-molded earbuds appeal to me because I am convinced that they attenuate a lot of ambient noise. 20dB? 30 dB? Who knows? The only real data I have is empirical: asked the wife to chat away, stuck the earbuds into my ears, and reduced her conversation to a hushed, indistinguishable murmur.

So ... following your description ... if road and engine noise are reduced to a hushed, indistinguishable murmur, I should be able to listen to Mozart at volume levels that are not damaging to my ears.

Does that sound right? (Heh, heh, heh; I made a pun ...)

 

[Fred W]

Yes. If you can get those custom shaped plug/phones to seal well they will attenuate well and youll be in good shape. Problem is, often they dont seal well. If you dont goober them with some kind of slippery gel they dont seal as well as crappy disposable foam plugs, and many folks complain of discomfort after X number of hours. But if you can tolerate them and get them to seal consistently they are great

 

[someguy]

What knifemaker is aptly describing is the hazard of using in ear monitors that do not provide a high degree of sound attenuation. Our ears are capable of detecting music fidelity as a function of the music (signal) to noise. If the background level of noise increases it takes a greater amount of music sound loudness to be able to discriminate the music clearly, and to be enjoyable.
The use of relatively high attenuating ear plugs (30 dB or greater) means that all sound is being attenuated by a factor of 1000 to 1. That means that the noise is attenuated by that much and the music is attenuated by that much. Regardless of how high you crank up the tunes, 1000x attenuation means that sound level will be safe

On the flip side, even the best ear buds only attenuate noise by ~20 dB. The dB scale is logarithmic, and 20 dB is equivalent to 100:1. Still a good amount of attenuation, but an order of magnitude less than 30 dB.

At 20dB the harmful outside noise may be well controlled and not objectionable , but the noise level is 10 times higher, meaning the music needs to be played at a 10 times higher level to the ear drum to reach the same SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio). The level that will be coming out of those in ear monitors is indeed very small, but because it is directly applied through the unattenuated ear canal to the ear drum will be more damaging.

Its a situation I have tried to describe here often, but is mostly not well understood. People think that because the noise is comfortably surpressed, and the music sounds clearer, probably because it is easy to increase the SNR above the standard without creating distortion, that it must be better. But it is actually more damaging to your hearing than the crappier sounding music you get through 30 dB ear plugs.

good stuff....

and perhaps i missed it...

but, what do you use.

and what are alternative safe solutions.

I have precious little hearing left and want to have good audio quality in helmet AND want to hear my grandkids...

thanks in advance.