Sad morning in my garage

[GA CYCLE RIDER]

Ditto on the seafoam, good stuff originally formulated for boat motors that sit a lot in wet and damp conditions. You can treat your oil , fuel or intake tract directly. About 6 bucks a can at napa and nothern tool. Go to seafoam.com for all the details.

 

[Windjammer]

Glad to hear your problems were relatively minor!!!

Now comes the real question - WHY all the carbon build up?? The FJR is fuel injected, not carb, so if everything else is working OK is should run clean at ANY normal engine speed (assuming you don't lug the motor around in top gear at 1500 rpm all the time). You should not have to spin it up to 7000 rpm to keep it clean.

I think the carbon chunk was a symptom, not the problem. I'd start peeking in at the plugs every 500 miles or so to see if they all look right - as in no black sooty stuff on any of them. I might also ask your very excellent mechanic to perform a complete EFI and ignition diagnostic to search for any cylinders with incorrect mixture or weak spark.

An EFI engine with 15,000 miles on it should look almost new inside the combustion chambers if you operate it normally. Big time carbon build up is not normal.

The root of the problem could also have been the cam chain tensioner. If it's sticking and not self-adjusting correctly, valve timing would be affected. So keep a close eye on the tensioner and replace it if it malfunctions again.

 

[jestal]

Fuel injected engines will build carbon in the chamber just like any other type of induction system. Why would EFI be immune to carbon build up??

An occasional dose of WOT is indeed good for cleaning the carbon out as well as moving the rings around on the piston and generally keeping things neat and tidy and free and mobile. In the automotive engine area it is common to see heavily carboned engines from granny drivers. WOT is the only way to keep the carbon cleaned out.

Before everyone starts pouring solvents such as Seafoam and other gas treatments thru your engine remember that the electric fuel pump is inside the tank and that the fuel flows around the armature of the pump to keep it cool. Many of the harsh solvents in carb cleaners and gas treatments will eat the varnish off the armature windings and cause the fuel pump to fail. If you REALLY think you need gas additives (you don't) be sure to add it sparingly and always dilute it with a full tank of fuel BEFORE running the engine. One of the quickest ways to kill a fuel pump is to pour the entire contents of a bottle of gas treatment into an empty tank and then ride the two miles to the station to fill up. That two miles of circulating the largely undiluted solvent can easily damage the fuel pump. Leave the gas treatments on the shelf at the store. If you want to clean carbon, WOT it occasionally.

A really good technique for cleaning the chambers and exercising the rings is to just cruise along at 5000 RPM or so in third gear. WOT and hold it until the RPM gets up to 8000 or so. Let off the throttle and let the engine braking bring the speed down. Repeat several times. Easy, safe, doesn't attract attention, etc. The WOT and higher RPM will clean the chambers and the overrun condition will move the rings around to keep the free in the ring grooves.

 

[Windjammer]

I'm not saying that EFI would be totally immune to carbon build up. I am saying that EFI is a more accurate fuel metering method, is much more consistent in delivering optimum mixtures in a variety of operating conditions, and if it's working properly you should never see a big carbon build up in a new (15,000 mile) engine.

Carburetors were a compromise in nearly every respect. They almost always ran too rich at some RPM, too lean at other RPM, and did not vaporize the fuel consistently over a wide range of operating conditions. Since the computer controls EFI fuel delivery based on a number of sensor inputs, it is able to more accurately compensate for variances in engine operating conditions, delivering a mixture that is closer to optimum for any given set of variables.

Will an EFI engine get carboned up? Sure it will, eventually. After 15,000 miles is it normal to have big chunks of carbon in the motor, requiring water mist spray to clean it out? No way! You need look no further than the body of evidence in this forum for proof. I'd be willing to bet there's plenty of guys here who baby their motors (those guys who get 45-50 mpg to start with). How many of them are posting up about the big chunks of carbon flailing around their combustion chambers, and the method they used to fix the problem. Maybe this has come up before in this forum, but I've never seen it until this thread.

I'm still highly suspicious of something amiss in the fuel or ignition system of this guys bike, (or maybe the chain tensioner). And if that something is wrong, WOT won't be the solution no matter how many times you use it. For example, if a spark plug wire was damaged/bad or a coil was weak, WOT would only admit more fuel that the engine can't properly ignite, making the carbon problem worse, not better. And I agree that in this case, fuel supplements are prolly not the answer either.

I'm not trying to be chicken little, and I'm not one who baby's my motor. Not at all. I'm just saying that if I found that much carbon build up in a new engine, I'd do some checking around for sure. My suspicious nature has saved me a lot over the years. It pays to heed warning signs. This carbon build up is a warning sign.

 

[wallypiper]

First, Bill Ristau asked me to thank the folks here that provided some technical assisttance on the forum during the process.

As for Seafoam, the owner of the shop, Craig Stewart, stated that the major manufacturers say not to use it in many cases because it damages the linings they use - Nikasil etc. He also stated however that he knows of many people that have used it regularly for thousands of miles without any apparent problems.

As to carbon buildup, the fact is that probably 30% of the miles on my FJR are dense suburban commute. As much fun as it is to open this beast of a motor up, doing so in a 1/4 mile backup at a traffic light is bad for a number of reasons - social , mechanical and medical.

Where are those pictures of Warchilds piston and heads? Heavy carbon buildup as I recall.

I don't know if the timing chain tensioner malfunctioned or he just happened to hear it click when that is what it should be doing but I am not really clear on what is inside the little bugger and would love to hear some expert explanation of what's in there and how it works.

I replaced the spark plugs 5,000 miles ago and the OEMs that came out, while worn, were not fouled. I may pull the ones that are in it and take a look though.

The carbon buildup doesn't have to be all that severe for this to happen. It just has to break loose and land in the right spot.

I'll let ya'll know what the plugs look like, even post some photos maybe.

 

[ionbeam]

I don't know if the timing chain tensioner malfunctioned or he just happened to hear it click when that is what it should be doing but I am not really clear on what is inside the little bugger and would love to hear some expert explanation of what's in there and how it works.

Venturing into Jestal country... The timing chain tensioner is a small housing with a spring loaded plunger in it. The tip of the plunger pushes on the cam chain to keep slack out of the chain. A proper check of the tensioner calls for it to be removed, put a finger on the plunger and press on it. The plunger action should be smooth and the spring pressure progressive.

The cam chain is fairly long, starting at the bottom of the engine, passing over a guide, up over both intake/exhaust cam sprockets, back down over a second guide and around the timing gear that is crank driven. An undampened chain will exhibit 'snatch' (a technical term with no reference to the XXX type ) as load and speed changes the unsupported center of the chain will tend to either rise or dip. If this was not managed in some way it would artificially advance or retard cam timing. The plunger's job is to keep uniform tension on the timing chain to prevent changes in cam timing.

Fuel injected engines will build carbon in the chamber just like any other type of induction system.

Another source of carbon in the cylinders is oil. A trace of oil will be left in spite of the oil ring. The greater supply of oil comes from the maligned and hated valve guides. A valve guide needs to provide a balance between good sealing and adequate lubrication. All valve guides will pass small amounts of oil.

As to carbon buildup, the fact is that probably 30% of the miles on my FJR are dense suburban commute

As you note, bad. Also bad are frequent starts without allowing the engine to come up to full operating temps before being shut off again.

 

[wallypiper]

So, regarding the tensioner, is it a simple plunger and spring or is there some sort of ratcheting mechanism that periodically resets the "preload" on the spring as the chain wears and the spring has to extend further to maintain tension? I've always heard that although not about the FJR in particular.

SV's have always had that reputation. The chain would start getting noisy and then the tensioner would reset or something and the noise would stop.

 

[Geezer]

Ford Expolrers are prone to carbon build up in the combustion chambers. An easy way to clear it on the V6 is to connect a small diameter hose to the vacuum intake on the throttle body and put the other end of the hose in a bottle of water. Let the vacuum draw in a couple of ounces of water to clean the carbon out. You need to regulate the amount of water that gets drawn in by pinching the hose so the engine doesn't stall.

Any comments on whether this is a good idea to try on the FJR?

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

So, regarding the tensioner, is it a simple plunger and spring or is there some sort of ratcheting mechanism that periodically resets the "preload" on the spring as the chain wears and the spring has to extend further to maintain tension?

You pretty much got it -- the "ratchet" is there to keep the plunger from moving back out (the forces on the timing chain are "pulse-like") so, constant tension is kept on the cam-drive system. btw, everything in there wears a little -- plastic runners, sprockets, etc. A little noise from the cam drive is not, necessarily, "bad" -- as long as the tensioner eventually catches-up. In the history of engines there've been many "patents" to get this done -- all have had some sort of minor faults.

 

[wallypiper]

So, regarding the tensioner, is it a simple plunger and spring or is there some sort of ratcheting mechanism that periodically resets the "preload" on the spring as the chain wears and the spring has to extend further to maintain tension?

You pretty much got it -- the "ratchet" is there to keep the plunger from moving back out (the forces on the timing chain are "pulse-like") so, constant tension is kept on the cam-drive system. btw, everything in there wears a little -- plastic runners, sprockets, etc. A little noise from the cam drive is not, necessarily, "bad" -- as long as the tensioner eventually catches-up. In the history of engines there've been many "patents" to get this done -- all have had some sort of minor faults.

Anybody got a sketch of this or a photo? I've got a service manual but all they show is the complete assembly. I'm just having a hard time imagining how you would accomplish this. I understand the main thing - plunger with a spring pushes against the tensioner plate which pushes against the chain and keeps the slack taken up. But as the chain stretches the spring extends and the force applied is reduced. Then?

 

[mech 1 twa]

Its a threaded plunger, similar to a bolt. Spring pushes it to keep tension. Its desinged to only get tighter, and won't back off.

It must be manually backed out, with a small flat tip screw driver. In most cases that tool will work.

It pushes on a chain block, softer plastic guide that the chain rides against.

 

[Just Plain Dave]

I love a story with a great ending. :yahoo: I just hope I can find a "Turboduck" in the Hill Country area of Texas to handle my maintenance.

 

[Windjammer]

Where are those pictures of Warchilds piston and heads? Heavy carbon buildup as I recall.

Very true, but keep in mind that Warchild's engine had been ticking for some time at that point, and had valve guides that were severely worn. The valve guides were leaking substantial amounts of oil into the combustion chambers, and that was the likely source of carbon build up in that engine. IIRC, his guides were leaking so much oil that some was passing into the exhaust stream and out the back of the mufflers.

So unless you're burning a measurable amount of oil, the Warchild comparison prolly don't apply here.

 

[wallypiper]

We'll just have to see about the carbon. The bike does a lot of commuting duty and that means two cold starts a day with only about 15 miles round trip. All engines, FI and otherwise, have to run quite rich when cold so maybe that is responsible for the quick carbon accumulation. I'm going to try to pull the plugs today and post some pictures.

Back to the tensioner.

I understand that it can't back off but what I'm trying to get at here is "the click". Do cam chain tensioners actually reset somehow? Or is it just a spring pushing a plunger pushing the guide with the plastic strip pushing the chain. I'm trying to understand the "reset" concept. I've always heard this. They gradually get loose until a certain point then it "clicks" and gets tighter again all by itself. Does it really do this? How?

 

[Rogue]

Back to the tensioner.I understand that it can't back off but what I'm trying to get at here is "the click". Do cam chain tensioners actually reset somehow? Or is it just a spring pushing a plunger pushing the guide with the plastic strip pushing the chain. I'm trying to understand the "reset" concept. I've always heard this. They gradually get loose until a certain point then it "clicks" and gets tighter again all by itself. Does it really do this? How?

The tensioner is a spring loaded plunger. It has a one way "lock" so it can go out but not in. Each time you hear it "Click" that is one step in the "Lock". It is designed to take up the slack from normal wear (Chain stretch, wear on plastic cam chain guides... )

 

[RadioHowie]

The tensioner is a spring loaded plunger. It has a one way "lock" so it can go out but not in. Each time you hear it "Click" that is one step in the "Lock". It is designed to take up the slack from normal wear (Chain stretch, wear on plastic cam chain guides... )

I'm resurrecting this zombie thread after linking it from SacMike's "Tales of Mechanical Woe".

In regards to what Rogue wrote above, should anyone ever read this thing, the cam chain tensioner IS a spring loaded plunger, BUT there is no "click" and no "lock" when the adjuster actually makes any adjustment. The spring, which is wound around the tensioner shaft, forces the shaft, which is a large screw, out through torsional tension. The adjuster simply screws out when there is slack in the chain. Theoretically, since the shaft is a screw, and the spring forces the screw deeper into the motor during slack-reduction, it can't retract.

But in truth, that theory is false. When the spring reaches the end of its effectivenes, i.e., no longer "pushes" the adjuster shaft out, there is no longer any spring tension to prevent the screw from backing itself out, causing even more slack in the cam chain.

Don't ask me how I know.

 

[Patriot]

The tensioner is a spring loaded plunger. It has a one way "lock" so it can go out but not in. Each time you hear it "Click" that is one step in the "Lock". It is designed to take up the slack from normal wear (Chain stretch, wear on plastic cam chain guides... )

I'm resurrecting this zombie thread after linking it from SacMike's "Tales of Mechanical Woe".

In regards to what Rogue wrote above, should anyone ever read this thing, the cam chain tensioner IS a spring loaded plunger, BUT there is no "click" and no "lock" when the adjuster actually makes any adjustment. The spring, which is wound around the tensioner shaft, forces the shaft, which is a large screw, out through torsional tension. The adjuster simply screws out when there is slack in the chain. Theoretically, since the shaft is a screw, and the spring forces the screw deeper into the motor during slack-reduction, it can't retract.

But in truth, that theory is false. When the spring reaches the end of its effectivenes, i.e., no longer "pushes" the adjuster shaft out, there is no longer any spring tension to prevent the screw from backing itself out, causing even more slack in the cam chain.

Don't ask me how I know.

SIGH :dribble:

 

[dcarver]

Radio, tx for finding this thread - I've been looking for TurboDucks info for months now...

 

[RadioHowie]

Radio, tx for finding this thread - I've been looking for TurboDucks info for months now...

Looking for some help on that KZ? (finally???)

 

[dcarver]

Radio, tx for finding this thread - I've been looking for TurboDucks info for months now...

Looking for some help on that KZ? (finally???)

Yep! Candy Butt Association