throttle problem article

[huk finn]

I found this article explaing the fazers injection mapping, it might be the same for fjr's. (hope its not a repeat of other post)

https://www.bikemagazine.co.uk/nav?page=bik...esource=5289716

might help with throttle problem

 

[Bounce]

nice! thanks.

 

[Silent]

Interesting read, thank you. I wonder if they make something simmilar for the FJR?

 

[radman]

Interesting read, thank you. I wonder if they make something simmilar for the FJR?

I would think the systems are more similar than not, who's gonna be first to try?

 

[yamaha1300rider]

Since writing last year about my clutch problem, I bled the clutch line with no improvement and concluded, as a layperson, that the problem was throttle/fuel injection.

 

[Silent]

Interesting read, thank you. I wonder if they make something simmilar for the FJR?

I would think the systems are more similar than not, who's gonna be first to try?

I can't afford that kinda scratch for an unproven item.

 

[Luke]

This topic looks a whole lot like this one:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?s...mp;#entry218984

 

[AZrider]

That makes all the sense in the world. I have a brother in law who works for Calif Consumers Bureau (has some other acronym) his buddy at CARB told him that manufacturers warned California that you could only run an engine so lean before bad things would happen. This was about four years ago and it's unbelievable that they can run engines that lean, they stumble and cough, stall and the power comes on all at once (snatch). Great article and verifies what I was told. Now who's going to be first?

AZ

 

[85turbo]

i have emailed the creator of the FCE mentioned in the article.

im waiting for a respone. ill post what i find.....

jason

 

[Tropical FJR]

The Australian model FJR does not suffer from the problems which appear to beset the US units.

If that is the case, surely the US model can be mapped the same as ours???

 

[Nice Rumble]

i have emailed the creator of the FCE mentioned in the article.
im waiting for a respone. ill post what i find.....

jason

I just sold a '06 FZ-1 and bought an FJR for this very reason. Unfortunately Ivan is a guru of FZ-1's (sportbikes), not FJR's.

The problem is emissions related and occurs only above 3500 rpm's. The ECU cut's fuel delivery to the injectors upon closed throttle and there is a pronounced hesitation when re-applying power. When this happens while leaned over in the middle of a corner can be very disconcerting to say the least. I think the PCIII is the answer to the FJR.

 

[85turbo]

@Tropical...

your bike may not be affected, but mine most certainly is.

i have made great improvements to it with the spring mod and a G2

throttle tube, but it's still not as smooth as i think it should be.

that's why i want to try different things.

i have considered the PCIII but at $AU800 Fitted and tuned, it's a little out of my budget right now.

jason

 

[Warchild]

that's why i want to try different things.i have considered the PCIII but at $AU800 Fitted and tuned, it's a little out of my budget right now.

$800 AUD for a PC-IIIusb?! :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:

That's about $646 USD.... holy crap, for that money, you can buy TWO Power Commanders from our very own SportBikeEffects and have them shipped over to you Down Under, and still have money left over for a brew!!!

Now, if you're referring to a PC-IIIusb and a hour or so of dyno time to make a map specific to your bike, that's obviously a different story. But unless you have a full aftermarket exhaust system to make the cost of a custom map worthwhile, you can easily get away with using any one of the throngs of maps freely available from DynoJet or other sources on the web. If you have aftermarket slip-ons, somebody has likely made a map for them that you can just download. If you have stock exhaust, the PC-III should come with a map already installed for your stock bike.

I would recommend dyno time only if you have an aftermarket full system... or you're a perfectionist who wants a custom map specific for your particular bike.

 

[jestal]

Keep in mind, while being critical of the driveability, that the vehicle MUST pass the emissions compliance testing to be sold. It does NOT necessarily have to drive perfect. Been there......done that. Not that the hitch in the git-a-long couldn't be eliminated with some more carefull calibration and extra software to enable the system to "drive around" the emission compliance issue but when faced with a fixed (for cost...???...or time....???) emission compliance issue it might not be unheard of to do something draconian like a fuel cut off on decel to lower emission numbers. I'm not defending Yamaha's cal guys but I suspect they know all you are thinking they are geing idiots for and did it for some reason.....likely out of desparation to meet emission compliance at the last minute.

There are two basic ways to create a decel fuel cutoff like is being described. One is simply to put "zero" in the fuel map tables for that those loads and speeds. If that is the approach then a PCIII is a simple and easy way to eliminate the problem. The PCIII allows an "add" to that portion of the table which would keep fuel delivery active. The other way is a separate fuel delivery routine in the ECM software that would do a decel fuel cutoff regardless of what the basic fuel map says. In this case changing the fuel map would not efffect a cure....but....since the PCIII simply adds to whatever pulsewidth is coming from the ECM to the injectors it would likely override the cutoff and continue delivering fuel.

There is another somewhat acedemic reason to put a distinct decel fuel cutoff in the fuel delivery system....that is most likely the fundamental reason for the decel fuel cutoff in the Yamahas. Any time a catalytic converter is put into the exhaust system a great deal of work and development goes into protecting the cat from overtemp. A cat overtemp situation can be nasty. At the least it damages the cat (melts it) and it doesn't cat(ylize) anymore and emissions go sky high. Sometimes this causes the exhaust backpressure to go high (plugged exhaust) and poor driveability results. At the worst the cat glows bright white and melts its way thru the exhaust system and "splashes" onto the street. China syndrome. Been there and done that, too.

Catalytic converters take unburned HC and oxidize it with excess oxygen in the exhaust stream and (lots) of heat is released in the process. On decels, the engine is misfiring and not running no matter how much fuel you continue to deliver with the injectors. This mix of unburned HC and raw oxygen on decels will very very rapidly overtemp a cat. To prevent this many many engines on the market resort to decel fuel cutoff. This has been common since the early 80's in the automotive world. If there is no fuel coming thru then the cat cools down. On a long decel a cat can very very easily overheat if decel fuel cutoff is not employed. In the automotive community the decel fuel cutoff for cat protection is controlled by a much more sophisticated software routine that turns the fuel back on in time to prevent hitches in the get-a-long.

My guess is that Yamaha put the cat on the systems, ran into decel cat temp problems when the engine is in an overrun condition above 4500 or so and stuck decel fuel cutoff in to prevent this......and didn't clean up the transition when decel fuel cutoff disables. Shame on them for this but, once again, the LAW states that the engine must meet emissions to be sold. Nothing is said about a hitch in the driveablity when decel fuel cutoff disables so that becomes "acceptable" in a sense. They may have found melted cats on the 03/04/05 bikes in service due to less or no fuel cutoff and "fixed" this for 06.

This raises an additional problem for those with cats in the exhaust system that eliminate decel fuel cutoff with the device in the article or a PCIII. You'll likely overheat the cat at some point. You may never know. But it will. Best case is you never know and just the emissions creep up. You MIGHT run into reduced performance over time if the cat melts and plugs the exhaust to some extent. Worst case....China syndrome. Seriously.

Anyone with a PCIII on an FJR ride up to Eisenhower Tunnel outside of Denver, downshift and decel down the hill to Dillion with the throttle closed and see if the cat falls out the bottom of the exhaust system.......

 

[radman]

In other words, a Power Commander ain't gonna fix a fuel shutoff. Nothing in means nothing out, regardless of what map is used.

 

[jestal]

In other words, a Power Commander ain't gonna fix a fuel shutoff. Nothing in means nothing out, regardless of what map is used.

I'm not sure at all but I think the Power Commander just adds or subtracts to whatever is in the base fuel table so if the decel fuel cutoff is implemented by calibrating "zero fuel" in the table the fuel added by the PC should eliminate it.

If the decel fuel cutoff is a separate routine then it might not be able to override it no matter how much fuel is added via the PC because the ECM could totally disable the injectors. Here again, I'm not so sure because the PC interrupts the injector driver circuit from the ECM and replaces it with the injector driver circuits from the PC. The PC "reads" the injector pulse width calculated by the ECM and adds or subtracts from that value and issues it's own pulse width over it's own injector driver circuit. So...it is entirely possible that the PC could override a zero pulse width if enough fuel is added to the PC map in that location.

The injectors are powered directly with 12 volts and the ECM fires the injector by pulling the injector circuit to ground. So as long as something (ECM or PCIII or ???) grounds that injector wire it will open and deliver fuel. That also would make me think the PCIII is capable of overriding a decel fuel cutoff.

I wouldn't argue this case one way or the other very vehemently as I really have not investigated the PCIII circuitry that closely but my guess would be that it can overcome the decel fuel cutoff in the Yamahas seen todate. The question in my mind was how the software in the PCIII operates in terms of adding and subtracting fuel. If it is a direct add or subtraact then it could take a "zero" pulse width and add something from the table to it and come up with a deliverable pulsewidth that would fire the injector. If the software in the PCIII takes the ECM pulse width and mulitplys it (like by adding or subtracting a percentage) then it might not be able to overcome a "zero" pulse width as zero times anything is still zero.... Maybe someone knows??

I mentioned the other factors because there are different ways to implement the decel fuel cutoff so how someone might go about alleviating it could change depending on how well they understand the problem they are dealing with.

 

[85turbo]

that's why i want to try different things.i have considered the PCIII but at $AU800 Fitted and tuned, it's a little out of my budget right now.

$800 AUD for a PC-IIIusb?! :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:

That's about $646 USD.... holy crap, for that money, you can buy TWO Power Commanders from our very own SportBikeEffects and have them shipped over to you Down Under, and still have money left over for a brew!!!

Now, if you're referring to a PC-IIIusb and a hour or so of dyno time to make a map specific to your bike, that's obviously a different story. But unless you have a full aftermarket exhaust system to make the cost of a custom map worthwhile, you can easily get away with using any one of the throngs of maps freely available from DynoJet or other sources on the web. If you have aftermarket slip-ons, somebody has likely made a map for them that you can just download. If you have stock exhaust, the PC-III should come with a map already installed for your stock bike.

I would recommend dyno time only if you have an aftermarket full system... or you're a perfectionist who wants a custom map specific for your particular bike.

yep, that $800 AU is for a PCIII including fitting, and a custom map.

that's about the going rate here in oz for the PCIII. you can buy the unit alone for about $550AU

im not so good at the fitting thing, so i think i will go get him to do it all.

also, about using a "stock" map. im not so sure that's a good idea.

with vastly different grades of fuel avaliable in all parts of the world.

my FJR is stock, no exhaust of intake mods at all, but i still think it's better to have a custom map done.

im not sure about the overheating cat thing though......

will likely have to do more research on that one.....

jason

 

[temp357]

The Australian model FJR does not suffer from the problems which appear to beset the US units.
If that is the case, surely the US model can be mapped the same as ours???

The dealer told me that it was possible to remap the FJR without a pciii....of course he wouldn't tell me how :|

 

[Tropical FJR]

@Tropical...
your bike may not be affected, but mine most certainly is.

i have made great improvements to it with the spring mod and a G2

throttle tube, but it's still not as smooth as i think it should be.

that's why i want to try different things.

i have considered the PCIII but at $AU800 Fitted and tuned, it's a little out of my budget right now.

jason

Have you tried richening up the mixture from the diagostic mode?

That may help.