New cruise control get flaky with time/miles

I am beginning to think some bikes are more sensitive to have thing tapped into the coil wiring. I am thinking it is a bike problem, not a servo/cruise problem. I won't be replacing the servo on the troubled bike for a few weeks. If that does not do it a refund will be issued. The only problems I have had are on 06-07 models... Smitty :angry2:

smitty141 said:

I am beginning to think some bikes are more sensitive to have thing tapped into the coil wiring. I am thinking it is a bike problem, not a servo/cruise problem. I won't be replacing the servo on the troubled bike for a few weeks. If that does not do it a refund will be issued. The only problems I have had are on 06-07 models... Smitty :angry2:

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With the servo mounted just above the engine, right? And the problems appear after running a while, correct?At least one of the posts here mentions how it works fine at first (cold to medium warm), then he stops (hot soak), then all goes to shit. Heat, too much of it, would appear to be at least part of, if not the, problem. The CCS was designed for cars, and while the underhood area can get pretty toasty, it's nowhere near the kind of heat that can be generated right above the engine in a relatively unventilated area.

radman said:

smitty141 said:

I am beginning to think some bikes are more sensitive to have thing tapped into the coil wiring. I am thinking it is a bike problem, not a servo/cruise problem. I won't be replacing the servo on the troubled bike for a few weeks. If that does not do it a refund will be issued. The only problems I have had are on 06-07 models... Smitty :angry2:

Click to expand...

With the servo mounted just above the engine, right? And the problems appear after running a while, correct?At least one of the posts here mentions how it works fine at first (cold to medium warm), then he stops (hot soak), then all goes to shit. Heat, too much of it, would appear to be at least part of, if not the, problem. The CCS was designed for cars, and while the underhood area can get pretty toasty, it's nowhere near the kind of heat that can be generated right above the engine in a relatively unventilated area.

Click to expand...

Sorry Rad, all three of the bikes I am having a problem with the servo is in the tool tray... Smitty

smitty141 --

What/where are you connecting into the '06 braking, engine, and power circuits? I installed the Audiovox on my non-ABS '04 FJR. I had no problems and it works fine.

From the schematics I've noticed that the braking circuits on the '06 are configured a bit differently.

Also I wonder if the throttle tang is the same on the '06? The farther out you connect from the throttle assembly's center of rotation the less force the Audiovox has to exert.

There doesn't appear to be any difference in the ignition coil circuits on the newer models.

I’ve been following the problems with the AVCCs not working in some installs. I dunno if this will help but here is some info and ideas for troubleshooting.

Broadly, the AVCC failures will be in one of these categories: No turn-on; no set; abrupt turn off, like when hitting the brakes; and failure to hold set speed. The problem de jour seems to fall into the failure to hold speed group. Failure to hold speed implies that all the other categories are working OK because it turns on, sets and doesn’t have abrupt turn off.

Failure to hold speed may be:

• Vacuum

o Lack of, due to check valves, too small reservoir, collapsing tubes, pinching tubes

o Servo’s internal vacuum controllers

o Servo’s internal vacuum diaphragm

• Throttle linkage connection

o Too much play

o Binding, inadvertent contact

o Servo cable clamp not holding the cable firmly at the throttle pulley or loosening when hot

• Throttle linkage force

o return spring force too high

o sticky throttle tube on the handle bar

• Electrical

o Dip switches not set correctly for ignition coil verses VSS or Magnet pickups

o Signal error on the coil pickup wire

===============================================

Vacuum:

• Put a gauge right at the vacuum port on the servo, sufficient?

• If the problem is low vacuum, the throttle cable will not have enough force to overcome the throttle springs, this also means that when speed is set you can try to force the throttle grip to reduce speed. If the servo is weak you will easily be able to overcome the servo. On my correctly functioning system it is darn hard to overcome the servo cable force. If you can overcome the servo cable force easily and vacuum is good to the servo, the problem can only be the servo or excessive throttle return force.

Throttle Force

• Clip fish scale to the throttle bell crank and pull; compare to a good install.

• Engine off, rotate the throttle grip roughly 25-40%, the equivalent to a cruising setting then release, note the rate that the throttle snaps shut, compare to a good install

Throttle Connection

• If the installs are all the same then just inspect, I’m sure you are all over this one

Electrical

• Physically switch the dip switches on/off again to ensure they are ‘made’

• If the servos are installed under the seat, pick up the coil signal at the ECU connector, selecting the solid orange or grey/red wire. The AVCC wire with the ‘filter’ can act as an antenna picking up electrical noise from the ECU, ABS or other installed electricals thereby confusing the servo. Coil up the excess AVCC wire and try to move it away from any other electrical devices or wires.

• If the AVCC power and/or grounding is shared with other devices they may interfering with the servo being able to read the coil signal.

• If everything checks OK to this point and the problem still persists, just for troubleshooting purposes install the magnetic pickup on the rear brake rotor WELL AWAY FROM THE ABS PICKUP and mount the AVCC pickup someplace on the frame. Change the DIP switches to indicate magnetic sensor is being used. Does the servo now control speed? If it now controls speed you are looking a coil signal problems. (Why not just keep the magnet pickup installed?)

When you ‘set’ the cruise control it takes a reading of the frequency on the coil wire then it uses the servo cable to constantly adjust the throttle so that the frequency on the coil wire always matches the frequency it measured. The correct name for this is an 'error amplifier'. If the vehicle speed starts to drop, the coil signal frequency becomes lower than the set frequency (an error condition) so the AVCC pulls on the throttle cable to bring the frequency back up until there is zero error. If the coil signal becomes faster than the set frequency it will release the throttle cable until there is zero error. The rate that the AVCC is allowed to pull and release the cable is determined by the DIP switch settings. Light vehicle with high HP setting tells the AVCC that any changes it makes will have a rapid and powerful change on vehicle speed so it pulls and releases the throttle cable very slowly. If the DIP switches were set for a heavy vehicle with low power the AVCC could aggressively pull on the servo cable but there will be little detectable effect on vehicle speed because power is weak and the vehicle is heavy.

When the servo adjusts the throttle cable it looks to see the amount of effect. If the adjustment did not create the expected results it will continue to try but at some programmed point where the number of tries or the amount of movement is determined to be excessive the unit will shut off speed control.

nice post!

another question... why cant u just tap into the abs wheel speed sensor output signal? Anyone done this?

djsmith1000 said:

another question... why cant u just tap into the abs wheel speed sensor output signal? Anyone done this?

Click to expand...

You could but you shouldn't. There is a fairly good chance that the signal from the FJR ABS would be of sufficient amplitude and clean enough to run the AVCC. There is also a chance that the AVCC may affect the way the FJR ABS works too. Or, the AVCC may possibly kill the FJR ABS ECU

OK. Now that I have had a chance to test mine for a reasonable amount of time, at freeway speeds (75-80), I have also experienced the dreaded unexpected shut-down.

I have a theory:

Mine only happens under unusual load; strong headwind, steep grade, etc.

If you consider the tab that most of us connect the servo cable to, you realize that when it is pulled straight up, it is still quite a way from being at full throttle. Those of us who have installed the eyelet so that it rotates on the screw through the tab are only allowing the throttle to be opened part way, even when the servo has pulled the tab to it's most vertical position. The tab must be able to be pulled past that position in order to maintain highway speeds under an unusual load. When the servo has pulled the throttle open as far as it can (vertical) and still cannot maintain speed, it shuts down.

I'm going to tear mine down again and determine if there is another way to connect the servo cable to the throttle linkage other than connecting to the "tab". There has got to be away to get more rotation of the throttle linkage.

ionbeam said:

djsmith1000 said:

another question... why cant u just tap into the abs wheel speed sensor output signal? Anyone done this?

Click to expand...

You could but you shouldn't. There is a fairly good chance that the signal from the FJR ABS would be of sufficient amplitude and clean enough to run the AVCC. There is also a chance that the AVCC may affect the way the FJR ABS works too. Or, the AVCC may possibly kill the FJR ABS ECU

Click to expand...

Well, what kind of sensor is it? Is a digital, like a magnetically biased hall effect? Or is a variable reluctance? I would guess that if it is a digital output sensor, if you were careful with it, for example, just putting a current limiting resistor before the CC unit, you would be fine. I dont know how the ecu would handle a variable reluctance sensor though, because at low speed, their signals my be small voltage. Anyone ever put a scope on the abs sensor before?

From page 6 of the Audiovox Installation Manual --

"This vacuum source must maintain at least a minimum of 6 inches of mercury vacuum. If the

vacuum is lower than 6 inches while the pedal is depressed, then a vacuum canister must be used."

At idle the FJR develops a vacuum of approximately 10 inches (250 mm) of Hg. When the throttle is opened at cruising speeds the vacuum is ? -- I haven't measured it.

Diameter of servo diaphragm = 2.5" +/- (I assume it's round, but may not be).

Surface area = 4.9 square inches

Force generated @ 6" Hg vacuum = (6 / 29.9) * 14.7 * 4.9 = 14.5 lbs. force

For stronger vacuums the force would be a multiple of this value.

---------------------------------------

Each wheel's speed sensor is composed of a permanent magnet and a coil.

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One could probably drive the Audiovox with the cylinder identification sensor mounted atop the exhaust valve camshaft. The pulse rate from this sensor would be 1/2 the engine rpm. This Hall Effect sensor provides a very clean signal -- >4.8 volts = On, <0.6 volts = Off. The regulated 5 volt DC bus from the ECU powers this sensor.

Ion Beam nice post.

To clarify, my problem falls into what you would classify as abrupt shut off. When it loses speed it does not sag or lose speed slowly, it acts as if the brakes have been lightly touched. The frustrating part is that when I replaced the servo it acted like a strong cruise for 15 miles at 78 mph then as the miles passed stated getting progressively more flaky. 1st test when I get home is to bypass the brake system again to see what happens with the new servo. Next will be vacuum testing when I score a guage.

I would like to hear from people with 06-07 FJRs with succesful AVCC installs. I assume there are some.

Has anybody used the magnet and sensor approach successfully.

Ross

rfulcher said:

Ion Beam nice post.
To clarify, my problem falls into what you would classify as abrupt shut off. When it loses speed it does not sag or lose speed slowly, it acts as if the brakes have been lightly touched. The frustrating part is that when I replaced the servo it acted like a strong cruise for 15 miles at 78 mph then as the miles passed stated getting progressively more flaky. 1st test when I get home is to bypass the brake system again to see what happens with the new servo. Next will be vacuum testing when I score a guage.

I would like to hear from people with 06-07 FJRs with succesful AVCC installs. I assume there are some.

Has anybody used the magnet and sensor approach successfully.

Ross

Click to expand...

I installed the MCCruise on my 06. The MCCruise uses rare earth magnets in the head of the bolts that hold on the rear rotor. The speed sensor then mounts on a bracket that attaches with the rear axle clamp bolt. This method should also work for the AVCC.

BuilderBob said:

OK. Now that I have had a chance to test mine for a reasonable amount of time, at freeway speeds (75-80), I have also experienced the dreaded unexpected shut-down.
I have a theory:

Mine only happens under unusual load; strong headwind, steep grade, etc.

If you consider the tab that most of us connect the servo cable to, you realize that when it is pulled straight up, it is still quite a way from being at full throttle. Those of us who have installed the eyelet so that it rotates on the screw through the tab are only allowing the throttle to be opened part way, even when the servo has pulled the tab to it's most vertical position. The tab must be able to be pulled past that position in order to maintain highway speeds under an unusual load. When the servo has pulled the throttle open as far as it can (vertical) and still cannot maintain speed, it shuts down.

I'm going to tear mine down again and determine if there is another way to connect the servo cable to the throttle linkage other than connecting to the "tab". There has got to be away to get more rotation of the throttle linkage.

Click to expand...

Bingo, this is exactly what happened to my 05. With the eyelet free to move once the eyelet moves straight up the CC cable can't pull on it anymore. When your road speed drops below a certain level of CC set speed the cruise will automatically shut off as it's designed to do. The CC in a car will do the same thing if you go up a steep enough grade. Lock the eyelet in a position that is a 90 degree angle to the throttle bodies. This will give you the most range of rotation and should solve the problem.

Today after I got back in town I hooked up a vacuum guage between the servo and the vacuum cannister. Put the guage under the map window of my tank bag. Also bypassed the brake shut off system. Then I went for a ride. 25 miles south on 95 at 78 mph, no problem. Vacuum guage stayed between 8-12 inches usually around around 12 inches. Turned around to go north and it got flaky again. It would release as if the brake circuit had been energized. It did not sag, it did not seem to fight to hold speed, it just released. Vacuum occasionally dropped to 8 but no lower that I could tell. However it tended to release when I would guess more throttle was required to hold position. For example slight rises or climbs up minor slopes or increase wind. I could raise the vacuum by coasting but this had only minor effect. Even with the vacuum pumped back up to 15 it would still release. As an experiment I turned around and headed south again. It again worked okay. The vacuum levels were slightly lower headed north. The only diffence between the north and the south runs was the wind and slight changes in elevation. Going north I was running into a strong gusty 20+ mph head wind and there were more gradual climbs. The wind and climbs seemed to have a greater effect than engine vacuum on the problem. It did not seem to be a vacuum issues since at times it would kick out when the vacuum was at a good level. Against the wind or climbing it sometimes kicked out even at vacuum levels that worked fine running with the wind. It acted more like a servo that would kick out when physical demands were higher.

The only electrical circuit I have not duplicated or verified is the hot lead for the brake system and the connection to the coil. I don't really see how either of these could contribute to the problem. I really don't want to do the magnet thing. I may try the connection under the left side cover off of the ECU. I am a little spooked of letting the magic smoke out if I use that location since there seems to be a lot of stuff under there.

Since it acts as if the servo is weak (whatever that means) in the near future I will try to improve the mechanical connections to decrease friction in the the throttle to servo connections. I will also retry with 4 vacuum ports and a check valve at each port and at the cannister. This may be more complex but the bike seemed smoother. Since I have the vacuum guage I can see if this helps of hurts the vacuum level.

I would love to hear from anybody with a strong reliable Audiovox on an 06-07 FJR.

Frustrated in Florence, SC

Your last post seems more like the servo is encountering mechanical resistance and dropping out.

No chance the servo cable is kinked or binding? Any way the servo connection at the throttle cable could be getting hung up? Maybe something you can't see with the tank off?

I've got another evening's work left to complete the install on my '06A. I'll be sure to let you know how it works. I'd be done now except I waited too long to mail my check to Gary for powder coating Ian's fine CC mount thinking they'd need a few days to get me one. Wrong! Those guys are great and FAST!

I'm also doing the brake line relay thing since I have the flashing Kisan bulbs installed.

Hang in there, it'll be worth it.

My Friend and I both installed an AVCC on our '06 FJR's. I installed mine first and his a couple of weeks later, both following the same installation instructions. Mine acts like rfulcher's, but the symptoms aren't quite as severe. My friend's appears to work perfectly - we've traveled together on the same roads, under the same conditions, and mine has released and his didn't - it never has... We rode a lot over the last weekend and mine released a couple of times - much less than my previous experience. Hearing the the vacuum levels stayed fairly steady during rfulcher's road test, I'm back to thinking that the throttle linkage and length of pull might get more of my attention. So don't give up. The AVCC can be successfully installed on an '06.

Dan

I'm a bit skeptical of your vacuum readings. The maximum vacuum occurs at idle and that value is approximately 10 inches of Hg. When the throttle is opened the vacuum drops below 10 inches. It's difficult to understand how you saw values greater than 10 inches.

Constant Mesh said:

I'm a bit skeptical of your vacuum readings. The maximum vacuum occurs at idle and that value is approximately 10 inches of Hg. When the throttle is opened the vacuum drops below 10 inches. It's difficult to understand how you saw values greater than 10 inches.

Click to expand...

The vacuum measurements on my '04 FJR shows roughly 10 in/Hg at idle but when riding it is more like 5 in/Hg and on steep hills and especially at WOT it can drop to ~2 in/Hg. Bear in mind the AVCC is an automotive device and it expects idle to be 16-20 in/Hg typical and 8 in/Hg worse case in stock engines.

If there is little to no speed sag before shut off I believe we can assume the following:

· Vacuum is sufficient, else lack of vacuum would cause speed to sag >5 mph before causing shutdown

· No mechanical throttle binding, else speed would sag or fail to reach set speed

· No limited servo cable travel, else speed would fail to reach or hold set speed. Symptom of travel problem would be failure to maintain speed while going up a steep hill, speed would seriously sag before servo shutdown.

· No problem with the coil signal or speed would sag and/or hunt

Under various setups I’ve tried, I’ve seen my servo allow speed to sag >5 mph for at least a minute without shutdown.

That leaves the following possibilities:

· Electrical connection is intermittent; this should cause random shutdown, without regard to length of operating time

o An intermittent electrical connection at either power of ground could happen so fast that the LEDs may not even appear to blink, but it only takes milliseconds to cause the servo controller to shut off.

· Insufficient servo cable actuation strength when the servo is hot, this should cause speed to sag first

o Since a replacement servo does the same thing as the original (with less frequency) the odds of two servos with the same problem is low -- not zero but low.

o When you first start out and everything appears to be working well, set speed and wait for it to stabilize then turn the throttle against the servo and note how much strength it took. Let speed sag ~5 mph, the servo should not shut off. Release the throttle and note the rate that you come back up to set speed. I did this with my correctly functioning AVCC this morning (28°F) @ 3,500 rpm; one vacuum port, fuel filter vacuum canister. It took noticeable, deliberate effort to change speed 5 mph, I had no shut down and rapid speed recovery.

o Try this again when you are at temperature and duration where the shutdown starts to exhibit itself.

More to come later.

So, you’ve been on the road >1hr. You have been droning along, perhaps with some significant heat. You start to lean forward a bit, stoop at the shoulders. You lean into the handlebars a bit more than when fresh. The servo is gently trying to adjust speed but you are now loading up the throttle preventing it from moving. The servo notices that action and response no longer match so it shuts down. Possible?

This may explain why the problem is so random with the same install, like Smitty’s. It may explain why two servos have the same problem. Just a thought.

My vacuum at idle is around 10-14 inches. It gets higher if I coast in gear of if I use engine braking by down shifting and letting out the clutch. If mine gets below 7 inches it is very likely to release. Maybe my cheap Harbor Freight vacuum gauge reads high?

I don't think I am putting any pressure on the throttle grip. In fact I make a point to holding it lightly and/or only touching the bar end weight. This is not hard when it is at it's worse as it only goes a mile or so without problems.

I will try the test of deliberately "fighting" the AVCC by using slow down throttle pressure early during a test ride and later when it is more flaky.

Thanks for the feedback and ideas.

Ross

ionbeam said:

Constant Mesh said:

I'm a bit skeptical of your vacuum readings. The maximum vacuum occurs at idle and that value is approximately 10 inches of Hg. When the throttle is opened the vacuum drops below 10 inches. It's difficult to understand how you saw values greater than 10 inches.

Click to expand...

The vacuum measurements on my '04 FJR shows roughly 10 in/Hg at idle but when riding it is more like 5 in/Hg and on steep hills and especially at WOT it can drop to ~2 in/Hg. Bear in mind the AVCC is an automotive device and it expects idle to be 16-20 in/Hg typical and 8 in/Hg worse case in stock engines.

So, you’ve been on the road >1hr. You have been droning along, perhaps with some significant heat. You start to lean forward a bit, stoop at the shoulders. You lean into the handlebars a bit more than when fresh. The servo is gently trying to adjust speed but you are now loading up the throttle preventing it from moving. The servo notices that action and response no longer match so it shuts down. Possible?

This may explain why the problem is so random with the same install, like Smitty’s. It may explain why two servos have the same problem. Just a thought.

Click to expand...

Went for another ride to test the AVCC further. Tried some more suggestions for testing. For 28 miles of I95 the bike acted like it had a great cruise control

1-It strongly resisted efforts to turn the throttle against the AVCC. It was actually hard to make it slow down by twisting the throttle down

2-It would resume from 20+ miles under the set speed

3-It would resume if I accelerated above the set speed and let the bike coast

4-It would hold cruise at 85+ mph, this was only briefly as I did not want to get a performance award.

4-I t generally acted like a great cruise control. If I had only tested for 25 miles I would have thought it was perfect.

After 28 miles or so it gradually began get flaky.

1-The first symptom was failure to resume if I accelerated above the set speed and let the bike coast. This was a consistent first symptom of deterioration in functioning. When this symptom first appeared the other functions were still good. Soon after the other symptoms started to show up.

2-The second problem was decreased ability to resume after slowing down by using the brakes.

3-The third symptom was decreased ability to hold cruise.

4-It would still resist my efforts to slow it down by turning the throttle down while the AVCC was engaged but not quite as strongly.

If I rode for a few miles with the cruise control turned off it would regain functioning. The longer I rode with it off the better the recovery of functioning.

It seems to me that the symptoms point toward something responsible for sensing and adjusting speed. The first sign being its inability to return to set speed after accelerating above set speed probably indicates something, I just don't know what.

Ross