Big SHOUT OUT to Yamaha

[Leghorn]

I've just got to give a huge thank you to Yamaha for its goodwill assistance in the repair of my "ticking" '04. My extended warranty expired more than four years ago, but Yamaha stepped up and provided all of the parts for exhaust valve guide replacement surgery.

Background: I tried to document a very faint noise back in 2008, but it was too fleeting and intermittent for the dealer to diagnose as abnormal. At the time the bike had well under 10,000 miles on it. Since retiring in June 2011, I have been riding more and, during a couple of cross-country rides, the noises rather quickly became louder and constant. Diagnosis at 30,000 miles: Ticker. Problem: Expired warranty as of August 2008.

I contacted Yamaha, hat-in-hand, and was initially refused assistance. I wrote them, laying out the details of my efforts to document a suspicious noise back in 2008 and, ultimately, we were able to agree that Yamaha would provide the parts, if I picked up the labor. This was particularly attractive to me because my cost for the repair parts would have been well over $1,000. Yamaha did not have any legal obligation to assist, but it provided the required parts as a goodwill gesture. For me it made all the difference in my decision to repair the bike. I mean that, other than the ticking problem, the bike was in fantastic shape, and well-farkled out. But as it is a 2004 model, I had to weigh the cost of repair versus the value of the bike after repair. Getting those parts from Yamaha made the repairs worthwhile for me.

Now the bike sounds like I remember it sounding when new and it seems to have more power, although I don't have before and after dyno info to document that feeling. Also, I got the work done at "winter labor rates," when the motorcycle shop was not so busy. Loudoun Motorsports in Leesburg VA did the work and they did a great job from my perspective.

Back on the road again!

 

[Fred W]

Wow. What a great story. Sure makes one feel good about owning a Yamaha.

 

[extrememarine]

Good deal - persistence is key, glad that they took care of you. Yamaha has to know word gets around and in the grand scheme of things, this probably didn't even register as a tick on their financials, but the work of mouth will echo loudly - a positive impact of the brand.

 

[Intech]

Good story! Glad it worked out for you.

 

[Mihalis fjr]

G R E A T..!!

 

[Bungie]

My ticker was fixed under almost exactly the same circumstances.

I believe the key factor in Yamaha's decision for the goodwill warranty work is if the ticking was documented but not repaired while the bike was under warranty. This sounds exactly like what happened with yours, as well as mine.

Regardless, that kind of goodwill goes a long way towards keeping me a lifelong customer.

 

[garyahouse]

Congrats on getting your "baby" fixed up. Glad to hear it's runnin' good for ya. Just curious, Leghorn, since you mentioned valve guides, was it loose valve guides that caused the ticking? Is this always the cause of the ticking issues FJR's have had? What did they replace besides valve guides and various gaskets?

 

[Leghorn]

Congrats on getting your "baby" fixed up. Glad to hear it's runnin' good for ya. Just curious, Leghorn, since you mentioned valve guides, was it loose valve guides that caused the ticking? Is this always the cause of the ticking issues FJR's have had? What did they replace besides valve guides and various gaskets?

My understanding is that the "tick," which can get so loud as to sound like a kitchen knife tapping on a stainless steel sink, is the valve tapping unevenly against the valve seat, due to an excessively worn guide. Guides and exhaust valves were replaced, along with the associated gaskets, seals, o-rings, etc. The guides on cylinders 1 and 4 were especially worn -- you could push the partially extended head of the outer valves laterally, by hand, at least a couple of millimeters in any direction. There are lots of old threads on this forum that provide historical discussion regarding the issue. A relatively small percentage of Gen I bikes were afflicted. The problem, as I recall, was that the guide hardness was mismatched to that of the valve. The issue was slow to manifest on my bike because I didn't ride enough in early years. Shame on me!

 

[ahchiu]

Glad to hear Yamaha took care of your problem.

 

[ionbeam]

...The problem, as I recall, was that the guide hardness was mismatched to that of the valve....

IIRC, the root cause was the stem seals being too tight causing oil starvation in the valve guide which led to guide wear. Once the valve stem starts to rattle in the guide the stem seal degrades leading to oil bypassing into the cylinder.

Stem seals are an engineers dilemma, too tight and the guides wear, too loose and they cause oil loss and emission problems. This leaves the engineers looking for the Goldilocks seal, not too tight, not too loose... (Which is entirely different from Odot seals which goes into Oogruk and is an ingredient in Akutaq.)

 

[SkooterG]

Ding, ding, ding ding! ionbeam gets the prize for the correct answer.

Congrats on the repair. It's good to hear of a happy story every once in a while.

 

[odot]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm............eskimo ice cream.........................

 

[SacramentoMike]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm............eskimo ice cream.........................

Is it true Eskimos have over 130 words for ice cream?

And only two flavors?

 

[MCRIDER007]

IIRC, the root cause was the stem seals being too tight causing oil starvation in the valve guide which led to guide wear. Once the valve stem starts to rattle in the guide the stem seal degrades leading to oil bypassing into the cylinder.
Stem seals are an engineers dilemma, too tight and the guides wear, too loose and they cause oil loss and emission problems. This leaves the engineers looking for the Goldilocks seal, not too tight, not too loose... (Which is entirely different from Odot seals which goes into Oogruk and is an ingredient in Akutaq.)

Ding, ding, ding ding! ionbeam gets the prize for the correct answer.

I don't think ionbeam gave the correct answer....just the "workaround" solution that Yamaha came up. The tick was caused by excessive heat buildup in the exhaust valve guides which lead to premature wear in those guides but Yamaha never disclosed the actual cause of the excessive heat. Jestal had a very comprehensive post that listed a half dozen possible causes of the excessive heat and speculated that 2 or more of those causes probably were in play at the same time in the engines that developed the tick. Valve guide seals are not supposed to allow any oil flow to the valve stems and if the tight seals were the cause of the excessive heat then every engine would have developed the tick.

Yamaha's solution was to cool the valve stems by allowing a small amount of oil to flow past the stem seals, which essentially ignored the root cause of the problem but turned out to be very effective.

 

[odot]

Oh, gawd, please make it stoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooop.

 

[SkooterG]

IIRC, the root cause was the stem seals being too tight causing oil starvation in the valve guide which led to guide wear. Once the valve stem starts to rattle in the guide the stem seal degrades leading to oil bypassing into the cylinder.
Stem seals are an engineers dilemma, too tight and the guides wear, too loose and they cause oil loss and emission problems. This leaves the engineers looking for the Goldilocks seal, not too tight, not too loose... (Which is entirely different from Odot seals which goes into Oogruk and is an ingredient in Akutaq.)

Ding, ding, ding ding! ionbeam gets the prize for the correct answer.

I don't think ionbeam gave the correct answer....just the "workaround" solution that Yamaha came up. The tick was caused by excessive heat buildup in the exhaust valve guides which lead to premature wear in those guides but Yamaha never disclosed the actual cause of the excessive heat. Jestal had a very comprehensive post that listed a half dozen possible causes of the excessive heat and speculated that 2 or more of those causes probably were in play at the same time in the engines that developed the tick. Valve guide seals are not supposed to allow any oil flow to the valve stems and if the tight seals were the cause of the excessive heat then every engine would have developed the tick.

Yamaha's solution was to cool the valve stems by allowing a small amount of oil to flow past the stem seals, which essentially ignored the root cause of the problem but turned out to be very effective.

Me thinks you are wrong on this one. Even Jestal alluded to the valve seals being difficult to get into the Goldilocks zone from a design perspective. And even he mentioned the lack of lubrication leading to abnormal wear. Not sure where you get valve guide seals are not supposed to allow any oil flow. My understanding (from Jestal) is that they are supposed to allow some oil for lubrication.

Besides, if it fixed it, how is it a 'workaround'? I mean with the new valve guide seals all Gen II motors are fine, as are all fixed tickers. Sounds like the new valve guide seals 'fixed' the problem.

Oh, gawd, please make it stoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooop.

What? Your inane, moronic posts?

I would be more than happy to do that.

 

[MCRIDER007]

Me thinks you are wrong on this one. Even Jestal alluded to the valve seals being difficult to get into the Goldilocks zone from a design perspective. And even he mentioned the lack of lubrication leading to abnormal wear. Not sure where you get valve guide seals are not supposed to allow any oil flow. My understanding (from Jestal) is that they are supposed to allow some oil for lubrication.

Besides, if it fixed it, how is it a 'workaround'? I mean with the new valve guide seals all Gen II motors are fine, as are all fixed tickers. Sounds like the new valve guide seals 'fixed' the problem.

Me thinks you are wrong and the only way to determine what Jestal actually said would be to find his posts. I seem to remember him being a bit skeptical as whether Yamaha's redesign of the valve seals would actually fix the problem.

I think the solution is a "workaround" if it did not fix the root cause even though it fixed the problem.

Another subject....I sent you a PM a couple of weeks ago asking for your expert unbiased opinion...are you going to respond?

 

[Fred W]

From a user's standpoint there is no difference between a fix and a workaround. In both cases the problem doesn't appear anymore, so the user says "it's all good now. It's fixed."

From an engineering standpoint there is a big difference between a "fix" and a "workaround." The real fix is the only one that identifies and addresses the root cause of the problem directly and resolves it. A workaround (or band-aid) is a solution that mitigates the resulting negative consequences, but without ever resolving (or sometimes even identifying) the root cause.

 

[ionbeam]

Beyond what Jestal may say, I have been dealing with stem seals and valve guides in car engines. I started building engines and tweaking them when breaker point ignition and carbs was all there was. One of the things that would help polish an engine for the last bit of power was to address the stem guides and seals, usually with something like Perfect Circle products. I have clearanced guides so that the stem seals would stay clear of valve keepers and springs as well as accepting a little oil consumption to keep oil on the valve stems. With the leaded gas at the time it was common to have wads of coked oil down by the flute of the exhaust valve. In the case of the FJR I would consider lubrication as a plausible and likely explanation. The trace film of oil placed on the valve stem due to the planned seal bypass is so thin, as in real, real thin that I don't see how that could impart any cooling except by reducing friction in the guide which is what the extra bit of oil seal bypass was supposed to do. If the stem seal gets any looser than this the engine begins to become an oil eater and you will be adding oil and your FJR would fail emission inspection should it be required.

IMO, the root fix for the FJR ticking is extra lubrication to reduce friction and wear, a secondary and perhaps incidental byproduct may be slightly reduced temperature due to better lubrication reducing friction.