Cycle World Comparo

[SoCalFJR1300]

Sounds like the comparo should have been between a Gold Wing and a K1600GTL, not a FJR.

I must say I probably wouldn't use half of those "features" on that Beemer, but I understand why some people would.

 

[David Foley]

Sounds like the comparo should have been between a Gold Wing and a K1600GTL, not a FJR.

True that! I find myself comparing the GW and K1600GTL much more often. Just can't seriously consider the GW right now though.

 

[dcarver]

Suck it up FJR peeps.

Newer bikes have more bling.

More bling = more $$

More bling$$ = more headaches and disappointments, later.

Kinda like the bling estrogen-endowed humans....

'jes sayin'.

Simple and Proven Rules.

 

[Graham Downunder]

BMW has a tried to engineer many things in the past with some success and lot of failures . Buyer have been the test pilots and left with the financial loss .One thing BMW do well down under is accept BMWs as a trade in on a new bike,of course they pay very little, but when no one else will take them as a trade what choice do you have ?.

My bet is BMW has not learnt a lot in the last 10 years about motorcycle customers and the appalling reputation they have world wide ,so they will continue to put out unproven engineering on bikes that cost the owners a lot of money to fix .They have however lost a lot of Government sales of police bikes around the world as they are tired of replacing clutches every 10-20,000 miles on R series bikes .

My opinion is the BMW 1600 is trying to be a sports tourer and a " goldwing " competitor and it will fail . The new R series will come out with the air/liquid cooled 1200GS motor with an oil clutch,different drive system and be a better all round bike This bike will have about 125 HP ( as the new GS already has ) and will weigh about 200 pounds lighter than the K1600 ( whale) . The K1600 will probably be discontinued like the K1300GT has been because it just will not sell well enough .

 

[Fred W]

SoCalFJR1300 - Dave, can you give us a few examples of why you think it's better engineered?
A short list some of the features of a K1600 that IMO make it the best engineered touring bike on the road. The FJR has several of these features as well but no bike other than the K1600 has this complete package.

Not to seem contentious, but increased number of features does not equal better engineering

So rather than saying that a BMW is a better engineered bike, what you really meant was that the BMW comes with more features. Whether those features (or the rest of the bike) are well engineered or not is still questionable, and a topic for another discussion maybe?

But let's just talk a walk through the "features" list in comparison to a new 2013 FJR:

ABS (got it)

Dynamic Traction Control (got it)

Electronic Suspension Adjustment (ESA II) (only AS in Europe gets this)

Cruise Control (got it)

Heated Seats (of questionable value)

6 Speed (don't need it)

Heated Grips (got it)

Adaptive Xenon Headlight (nice feature)

Ground Lighting (dumb)

Tire Pressure Monitoring (nice feature)

Anti-Theft System (PITA)

Integrated LED Fog Lights (got it)

Central Locking for storage compartments (questionable value)

Factory Crash Bars (stock?)

Front and Rear Powerlets (nice feature)

Inline 6 Cylinder only slightly larger than the Inline 4 cylinder it replaced. (is this really a feature?)

7 Gallon fuel tank on the GTL (Range 350 miles) (I question that range number. 50mpg? Really?)

Integrated Navigation (nice feature)

Integrated Bluetooth Communications (nice feature)

Integrated Audio (redundant to previous)

Integrated Satellite Radio (redundant to previous)

IPod Integration (redundant to previous)

Multi-Controller (BMW Motorcycle equivalent of iDrive) (got this unfortunately)

TFT Color Display (redundant to Nav System)

Menu Guidance (unfotunately FJR got it)

Duolever Front Suspension (not a feature, just is what it is)

Paralever Rear Suspension (not a feature, just is what it is)

CANBus (this is not an attribute)

Battery under the seat (not sure if this is an attribute, just is what it is)

Obviously I don't subscribe to the theory that "simpler is more gooder".

The "simpler is gooder" was in reference to reliability. Some folks would say that elegant engineering is usually simpler designs.

So, looking closer at your massive "features" list above for the BMW, the ones that you don't get on an 2013 FJR that do seem like they would be valuable I have annotated in blue above and copied to a shorter list below:

Adaptive Xenon Headlight (nice feature)

Tire Pressure Monitoring (nice feature)

Front and Rear Powerlets (nice feature)

Integrated Navigation (nice feature)

Integrated Bluetooth Communications (nice feature)

Is this list worth the difference in price? The other items in the feature list above are either found on an FJR or are not really attributes you would want to add to your bike.

As for the Suspension, stock suspension always sucks, except maybe on the real exotic bikes (high end Ducatis and Bimotas) so the idea that you might want to upgrade an FJRs suspension at some point is a no-brainer. That would be better than being stuck with the expensive ESA bought on the BMW at purchase for the life of the bike, or paying twice for the "better" suspension when you have to replace the ESA with aftermarket later on down the road.

I hate heated seats. They just make your ass sweat. When it's really cold out your butt isn't what's getting cold, so why would you heat that? You are still going to want heated liners and gloves, so just skip the seat heat and get those.

A 6 speed is just another gear you have to shift through to get to overdrive and is totally unnecessary on the FJR, could possibly even be considered a negative since you'll be required to shift more often.

Non-NA bikes get EWS theft deterrent systems. They are a PITA and I am glad the US FJRs don't have them. Theft deterrent systems don't really work to deter theft anyway.

Not sure how the central locking works or if it is a positive feature. Might be. But does that mean the bags and trunk have to stay on the bike all the time? Or do they get quick disconnect wiring of some sort you have to fiddle with?

The fact that is a 6 cyl is both an attribute and an detractor. Smoother? Most likely. 1/2 again as many components to have to service? For sure. I'd say it is what it is. You can't graft 2 cylinders on an FJR.

As for the 7 gallon (incidentally only .4 gallon larger than FJR) tank and the 350 mile range claim, I see where BMW states 51mpg highway. I call BS. Real world reports are from 35 - 45 mpg, pretty much the same as the FJR. This Motorcyclist Online test returned a number of 38 mpg. The folks that are going to be really concerned about range are going to strap an aux fuel cell on the bike anyway and be limited to the same total volume of fuel. The aux cell on the bemer will be .4 gallons smaller. So the mpg dictates the range, which will be essentially the same as an FJR.

Anyone who has messed with CANbus in a car will know that this is not really a positive attribute. It is a way to tie together the electronic geegaw of a vehicle in a fairly robust and reliable way, but it also makes adding new aftermarket stuff to your system more difficult and more expensive. It also puts diagnosable of electrics on the bike out of the realm of most home based DIY guys.

Integrated Nav is nice (if it's any good). My understanding is it is a zumo 665 in BMW wrapper, so that is a ~ $600 street price add on to the FJR. Also, the integrated audio features are nice, if they are any good. But getting a pair of bluetooth headset (you'll need them for the BMW too) and pairing it to the zumo GPS and passenger pretty much takes care of all of that.

Powerlets are nice, and can be added for $50-100 if you DIY. Plus you can integrate a heattroller for your heated jacket liners in the aftermarket ones. No liner heat control built into the OEM BMW ones is there.

TPMS system will cost you about $300-400 for Doran, and these are quite reliable.

So it boils down to just Adaptive HID headlights as the big feature difference.

It's nice, but wouldn't induce me to want to buy a $26k motorcycle.

 

[MCRIDER007]

BMW owns Yamaha when it comes to technology

In 1968 I was at the same stage in riding experience and motorcycle knowledge that you are today......but I was experienced enough not to believe all of the the marketing hype and realize that technology and innovation doesn't mean much unless it actually adds value and is reliable enough that you can expect it to last at least as long as you expect to own the motorcycle.

 

[David Foley]

So it boils down to just Adaptive HID headlights as the big feature difference.
It's nice, but wouldn't induce me to want to buy a $26k motorcycle.

The list of aftermarket products that I provided are, based on what I see on this forum, a standard list of Farkles for a 2013 FJR. Prior to 2013 you could add cruise control to that list. So the way I see it you're really paying ~ $22K for the FJR. The resultant ~$4K difference in price you can attribute to larger engine (power/torque), adaptive headlights, 6 speed, and better integrated electronics. The bottom line is, as always, you get what you pay for.

The real argument against buying a BMW, at least in my mind, is the increased TCO due to higher maintenance costs. And also to the perceived reliability issues - although you gotta wonder why, if they are so unreliable, all those IBR guys are betting their ass on them.

 

[Fred W]

You missed my point. Just because you see different people listing different items as being "must have farkles" doesn't mean that everyone has (or even wants) everything on the list. When you deliver a bike that has everything you get (and pay for) a lot of essentially useless (to you) features.

BMW USA has employed this same marketing philosophy with their cars. They believe that the American consumer wants every possible feature and so loads up the cars to the hilt (as compared to their Euro cars). They started this silliness back in the mid-90's and that was when I quit buying them. Now they are just bloated, overpriced status symbol cars. Too bad because underneath they are actually well engineered, good handling relatively sporty sedans.

OTOH, if you really think that you can't live without having all of those features on the BMW K1600GTL, then maybe the loaded bike is for you.

Either way, I stand by my assertion that it really is not the same class of bike as the FJR or Kawasaki Concours. So naturally it appeals to a different subset of buyers, and a different subset of magazine writers.

And no, you most definitely do not always get what you pay for. Sometimes you pay too much for too little. That is precisely what defines "value."

YVMV

 

[CopB8]

Well, I went through an exhaustive analysis of each of these bikes features, reliability record, Total cost of ownership, and eventual resale value. After a great deal of thought and consideration I went to the Dallas motorcycle show and just bought the pretty one!

There, how scientific was that?

 

[jayke]

I find it interesting that we have to defend our choice in motorcycles. Does it really matter? I ride what I ride because that's what I want to ride. Having more competition in the sport touring class improves the class as a whole as competition forces the other manufactures to add new features to their bikes to compete. In the end we all win.

 

[David Foley]

BMW owns Yamaha when it comes to technology

In 1968 I was at the same stage in riding experience and motorcycle knowledge that you are today......but I was experienced enough not to believe all of the the marketing hype and realize that technology and innovation doesn't mean much unless it actually adds value and is reliable enough that you can expect it to last at least as long as you expect to own the motorcycle. The bottom line is that it is pretty obvious that you do not know squat about the motorcycle you own and should not be giving advise about motorcycles you have only sat on in showrooms.

Hello McRider007 (or whatever your name is) nice to meet you. I don't know that what i was saying could be construed as "advice" - I was simply stating an opinion. Just like everyone else on this board.

As far as not knowing "squat" about the motorcycle I own - well I'm learning

. Thanks in no small part to the folks on this forum.

When I purchased my FJR I bought it without ever haven ridden it - a leap of faith that I don't regret. Experience tells me I won't be as lucky the next time so I have test-ridden both the K1600 GT and GTL. Does that make me an expert - certainly not. But it does give me the right to state an opinion - Thanks.

 

[David Foley]

I find it interesting that we have to defend our choice in motorcycles. Does it really matter? I ride what I ride because that's what I want to ride. Having more competition in the sport touring class improves the class as a whole as competition forces the other manufactures to add new features to their bikes to compete. In the end we all win.

I don't know that what we are engaging in here should be classified as a "defense". Your right it doesn't really matter - everyone should buy what makes them happy! Comparing motorcycles is a "talking sport" - it's all good.

 

[David Foley]

Well, I went through an exhaustive analysis of each of these bikes features, reliability record, Total cost of ownership, and eventual resale value. After a great deal of thought and consideration I went to the Dallas motorcycle show and just bought the pretty one!
There, how scientific was that?

Yep - me too! Now having thoroughly caught the bug - you gotta have more. Plenty of room in the garage!

 

[ionbeam]

At least they included the FJR (even if it was to have something to kick dirt on), Honda and Kawai didn't even make the cut.

 

[Old Guy]

-- snip --However, I blame Yamaha at least for the stock windshield which I assume is similar to my 09's. -- snip --

Bill

I understand that I'm probably in the minority here, but I quite like the stock windshield. I actually keep it in the lowest position on most two-lane days and quite often on the interstate. I recently rode 1500 miles in two days, and much of that was in 90+ degrees. I had the shield up thinking that's how it's supposed to be done and was sweating in my helmet and mesh jacket. I lowered it to the lowest position looking for relief and was much more comfortable.

Bear in mind that I came to the FJR off a GL1800 Goldwing that'd I'd toured on for 11 years. After sweltering though 11 Arkansas summers on that thing, a little wind in the face is a relief.

But, then, my other bike is a ZRX1100 with an even smaller fairing, and I like it, so what do I know?

 

[MCRIDER007]

As far as not knowing "squat" about the motorcycle I own - well I'm learning

. Thanks in no small part to the folks on this forum.
When I purchased my FJR I bought it without ever haven ridden it - a leap of faith that I don't regret. Experience tells me I won't be as lucky the next time so I have test-ridden both the K1600 GT and GTL. Does that make me an expert - certainly not. But it does give me the right to state an opinion - Thanks.

Fair enough, and please accept my apologies for the making the comments. I deleted the second sentence of my post 10 minutes after posting but you were quicker than I was in documenting the original.

 

[David Foley]

Old Guy - I understand that I'm probably in the minority here, but I quite like the stock windshield. I actually keep it in the lowest position on most two-lane days and quite often on the interstate. I recently rode 1500 miles in two days, and much of that was in 90+ degrees. I had the shield up thinking that's how it's supposed to be done and was sweating in my helmet and mesh jacket. I lowered it to the lowest position looking for relief and was much more comfortable.

I like the stock windshield too. And like you, due to the murderous Texas heat, I keep it in the lowest position except when I'm on the interstate. There I sometimes wish I had a little more protection. So being new to this, and often times not knowing when to leave well enough alone, I ordered a Cee-Baily Sport Screen.

It's a very conservative shield, measuring only 1 inch taller and two inches wider than OEM. According to the CB website it's rated "E" for everyone. We'll see if it adds more protection on the interstate. At any rate I'll have a spare.

 

[CopB8]

I'd like to see a few more pics from different angles on that shield. Maybe a profile and a dead on front shot. It looks great in that picture.

 

[lnewlf]

re adaptive headlights- MCN said that when going uphill the lights were to close on the road and when going downhill they were shining in the woods...I'd rather mount a pair of Clearwaters. A complicated, possibly troublesome "feature" that I don't want on my Feej.. Don't need TPS or ESA either. Don't need over engineered Paralever [did they figure out how to fix it yet?] Any complaints on the simple FJR shaft drive ? Don't need the hard nosed attitude that I've read about for years from BMW either..

Oh yeah- after leaving Americade a guy on a K1600 stopped next to me at a light,-long open straight road ahead. We took off on green. I was not at all impressed with his K but he got an education about the Yamaha FJR...he did stay close tho and blew by me when I hit about 8000rpm in fourth and backed off [go to jail time]..

 

[Fred W]

At least they included the FJR (even if it was to have something to kick dirt on), Honda and Kawai didn't even make the cut.

The BMW was included in the comparo because CW had chosen it as the top dog the two prior years, so it was already the "gold standard". The FJR and Triumph are "new" models, and that was why they were included.

I searched and found the article online here, in case anyone is curious exactly what it says.

Paraphrasing, the CW testers thought the FJR didn't measure up because the windshield was too small and the handlebars required too much steering effort to hold a line in the corner. what they called "roll-steer" (an incorrect use of that term, FWIW. Roll steer has to do with changing steering angles as the suspension articulates). I would guess that is more related to the tire choice and pressures than anything to do with the bike itself. I know my 8 year old FJR with essentially the same setup doesn't require any effort to hold a corner, aslong as I keep the car tires off the back.

They also dinged the suspension on the FJR saying:

The ride in the softest settings is comparable; but even at full firm, as Todd described it, “The bike loses its composure when pushed hard through corners and moves around any time the road surface isn’t close to perfect.”

Clearly these knuckle heads know very little (at least less than me, and that isn't all that much) about setting up a bike suspension and handling. The reason that a tire skitters in a corner is because you either have too much spring and/or too much compression damping. Making it "full hard" would just make that worse.

I also found it interesting the the electronically adjustable suspensions on the other two are only adjustable for 3 rebound and preload settings on the Trumpet (front and back), and just

Anyone that is swayed by the tripe that these moto-journalists ejaculate is doing themselves a big disservice. I say: ride the bikes yourself and decide.