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Old thread I know....

Just wanted to share that my 29 year old son told me last week he was interested in getting a gun, and I suggested he go with me to a local range and shoot my pistol, and perhaps try out a few others. (The range has many pistols you can rent to shoot)

Awhile back I sold my Kimber .45 Target and bought a lowly Ruger LCP. Have never fired the thing...just loaded it and kept it handy.

So, was looking forward to see if the thing worked, and to sharing some time with the son.

He found the tiny LCP too small for his larger hands, so he checked out a Ruger 9mm that was a similar looking pistol but of course bigger and a higher power cartridge. He did well for his first time shooting...and I did rather poorly with the little .380 compared to my old .45, which I'll attribute to zero practice on it and it's lack of actual sights. Assassin material we weren't, but managed to keep 85% of our shots in kill zones at 21 feet.

Both me and the guy at the range suggested if he just wanted a gun for home defense...to get a 12 gauge. Later after we were done and I was dropping him off at his house, he said he'd still rather have a pistol, as he wanted the concealed carry option to be there.

There's a gun show here next weekend, so I suggested we could go and see what fit his fancy...and his hands. ;)

And it's obvious I need more range time....

 
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Never taught my wife to shoot. just didn't think that would be a wise thing to do.
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Old thread I know....Just wanted to share that my 29 year old son told me last week he was interested in getting a gun, and I suggested he go with me to a local range and shoot my pistol, and perhaps try out a few others. (The range has many pistols you can rent to shoot)

Awhile back I sold my Kimber .45 Target and bought a lowly Ruger LCP. Have never fired the thing...just loaded it and kept it handy.

So, was looking forward to see if the thing worked, and to sharing some time with the son.

He found the tiny LCP too small for his larger hands, so he checked out a Ruger 9mm that was a similar looking pistol but of course bigger and a higher power cartridge. He did well for his first time shooting...and I did rather poorly with the little .380 compared to my old .45, which I'll attribute to zero practice on it and it's lack of actual sights. Assassin material we weren't, but managed to keep 85% of our shots in kill zones at 21 feet.

Both me and the guy at the range suggested if he just wanted a gun for home defense...to get a 12 gauge. Later after we were done and I was dropping him off at his house, he said he'd still rather have a pistol, as he wanted the concealed carry option to be there.

There's a gun show here next weekend, so I suggested we could go and see what fit his fancy...and his hands. ;)

And it's obvious I need more range time....
LCP doesn't fit anybody's hand, but you can make it suck less to shoot with a mag extension, overgrip and some bright paint on the almost non-existent front sight. I shoot mine about once a month just to remind me how hard it is to shoot well, but only a dozen rounds or so. I spend the rest of the time shooting something enjoyable.

The wife and I go to the range every other week now. It has become "our time" together during the week. When my son comes home on the weekends, we often go to the range. He usually out shoots me, but last time I beat him offhand with the 22 pump rifle at 100'.

 
Remember that the LCP is a "contact" gun, meant for close distances. Close distances as in 0-7 feet. A large percentage of concealed carry confrontations are very close up. Most law enforcement shootings are 7 feet and in, and civilian self defense shootings follow that pattern. Practice shooting from the weapon-retention position and then punching it out while stepping back. Don't just stick it out there for someone to grab.

My opinion is not to worry about having a hard time hitting a target at 15 or 20 yards with an LCP. That's not what it's designed for. Little short barrel and goofy sights mean it's close range only. Still gotta practice though. I've seen plenty of 2-3 yard misses...THAT'S embarrassing, and could prove deadly.

 
The LCP does have the Mag finger extension, and for my hands it was....OK. My son could hold it, but the kept rising at the back of his hand, so he had to reposition it after each shot. No problems with the larger 9, other than getting used to the trigger pulls switching from gun to gun.

We were shooting from 7, 15 and 21 feet with most of the shooting on the little LCP at 7. Was not expecting two inch groups with the gun and was able to put 5 out of 6 shots near center on the head of a standard silhouette target at the closer range.

Guess the question is now what's a good caliber and gun for him to get. I've always been fond of my Kimber .45 Target..but it wasn't a good carry gun. Luckily my son makes crazy money, so price isn't an issue.

Most folks I know carry 9mm, or .380's like mine.

 
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The LCP does have the Mag finger extension, and for my hands it was....OK. My son could hold it, but the kept rising at the back of his hand, so he had to reposition it after each shot. No problems with the larger 9, other than getting used to the trigger pulls switching from gun to gun.
We were shooting from 7, 15 and 21 feet with most of the shooting on the little LCP at 7. Was not expecting two inch groups with the gun and was able to put 5 out of 6 shots near center on the head of a standard silhouette target at the closer range.

Guess the question is now what's a good caliber and gun for him to get. I've always been fond of my Kimber .45 Target..but it wasn't a good carry gun. Luckily my son makes crazy money, so price isn't an issue.

Most folks I know carry 9mm, or .380's like mine.
You will probably get a ton of opinions so here is mine. Carry what you can shoot comfortably and do endless practice until it becomes second nature and even then if your not sure of your ability don't carry !!!!!!! If you chose to carry always carry the same weapon in the same place cause seconds count if the shit hits the fan . Check out the carry guard insurance available.

I like my Springfield V10 ultra. It's a commander sized 1911 .45 with a ported barrel and slide. stays on target wonderfully . The drawback is that it is a bit heavy but I don't mind the weight.

 
Well, that's part of the problem, this was his first time shooting and it was just the two pistols. I'd be hesitant to suggest a single action auto like the 1911 to someone with such limited firearm experience. I can tell he would be more comfortable with a gun he can get all three fingers wrapped around on.

I haven't been following the pistol industry for awhile, so not sure what's the hot tickets out there as far as models nowadays. The LC9 did seem like a nice piece, although I found the magazine release and slide release a bit hard to use (likely that way for a reason)

Most folks tell me "you can't go wrong with a Glock", but ultimately it will be up to my son to pick one out...likely with not having fired it yet.

 
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I carry a KAHR PM9 because I like the 9mm round and the KAHR is light and small enough to carry comfortably in a pocket holster. It looks like a wallet in my pocket. I have large hands and many small auto-loaders allow the slide to cut my hand as it comes back, but the grip on the KAHR fits me well enough that I don't get that. KAHR is as reliable as any other quality handgun.

I suggest a trip to a store that stocks a variety of quality handguns and try a variety of guns in his hand to see what fits him. Smaller and lighter is easier to carry, but a smaller caliber is less effective when needed.

 
Opinions?!?! I have lots of those, especially when it comes to guns, but I've been teaching people how to use them for 17 years, and I have a pretty good knack for not getting dead.

I'll use "you" because this applies to everybody, not just your son KM.

Firstly, like Ray said, carry whatever caliber you can shoot accurately and quickly. Follow-up shots are important, as is first round accuracy. I tell this to my guys all the time, "We cannot miss fast enough." I'm not a big fan of .380. In my opinion, it's a weak round with bad ballistics. My first SWAT commander always said that if he got shot, he hoped it would be with a .380. However, I have very little use or wound data to back that up, and it's 15 years old. LOTS of people carry them, and like all rounds, shot placement is everything.

I like 9mm, .40, and .45. They are all great pistol rounds, and are easier to come by than calibers like .380 or .357sig. Don't let anyone say a 9mm is weak. They are very fast, so can be devastating. The new powders and bullet designs have removed most perceived advantages of the larger calibers. I like my .40 Glock, but know the .40 round has more recoil and many smaller shooters like the 9mm better, just because of that. 9mm is easier to shoot. I LOVE my .45. I carry a Springfield Operator TRP at work. However, the bullet isn't magic. Yes, it's bigger, but it's also slower. I carry the pistol because I can drive tacks with it. That's because of the design of the 1911, as opposed to the caliber. None of them are greatly better or worse than the others, and bigger doesn't mean better. I know I can carry .45 rounds that move almost as fast as a 9mm, but they'll be +P+ rounds and recoil like a Mo-fo, beating the shit out of me and my gun. Recoil and muzzle flash are why most departments have moved away from the .357sig. It's a cannon because it hauls ass, but breaks guns, and follow-up shots are a bitch. Night time shots with huge muzzle-flash are difficult. 9mm guns,carry more rounds than .40 and .45., so magazine capacity may be a factor.

I am not a huge Glock fan. I think part of that is because that's what our department issues, and a couple neighboring departments as well, so I've had the opportunity to see lots of failures. Glock sometimes does stuff that irritates me, and the blocky shape of the gun doesn't fit me well. However, I'm one guy, and thousands of shooters shoot the shit out of them. Still, my off-duty gun is a .40cal Glock 27.

It's a little fat, and I have the mag extensions on the small mags, because without them, there's not enough grip space and it feels like it wants to flip in my hand. Like any small gun, the mag extension helps with that. The single reason I bought the gun was because I carry it with its 9 round OEM mag, but my reloading source is a 15 round Glock 22 mag. At the time, Glock was one of the few manufacturers where different sizes of different models had interchangeable magazines. It's simple and easy to use. Not the lightest or smallest, but not the heaviest or biggest. It's accurate and has been reliable.

Springfield makes a great gun in the XD series. Lighter than the 1911s, but wider. I have a full size 9mm XD that my daughter competes with. Has the same egos as the 1911, so has a better feel than Glock...In my opinion.

S&W is making huge headway among law enforcement and competition shooters with the M&P series. The Shield is a great little gun, and they fit hands well. They have small, medium and large models, so the can fit the shooter. Remember, a single stack magazine will be less bulky than a double stack magazine. Even Glock has jumped on that bandwagon with the 9mm Glock 43.

There is nothing more or less dangerous about a SA 1911. However, that gun is more involved and takes more training to master. Unlike other models, it has an exterior thumb safety and a grip safety. Gripping a 1911 incorrectly will result in poor accuracy and precision, however with correct practice, most of them are more accurate than their shooters. I know mine are, and I have multiple 1911s.

Right now, Sig Saur is making some very cool guns. I think it's their P238 that lots of people really like. It's been a while since I've shot one, so don't have much info on their new triggers. I had 5 Sigs at one point, 2 .45 P220s, 2 .40 P226s, and a .40 P229. I'm down to the two 226s, because they were both duty guns, and I don't sell or trade duty guns. Too much of a personal connection. Their SA/DA triggers are heavy on the first pull, and the older DAO guns had awful triggers. I've lightened the main springs to help with that. 3lb SA pulls after the 12lb first pull is nice. Lol. Again, I've heard they are better, but I have very little handling time with them, so can't have a fair opinion, good or bad.

Bottom line, go to an indoor range store where they rent guns. Then shoot as many brands and styles as possible. Shoot them until one speaks to you. Fit and reliability are the two main factors people need to look for. Most gun models come in at least the three main calibers, so that's the easy part.

Finally, take gun classes. Lots of them. Most aren't crazy expensive if you provide your own ammo. Like anything, not all instructors are as cool as me, so some give garbage info. I've been to plenty of classes where I discarded lots of material and kept other stuff that absolutely made sense. Use common sense. Anything that sounds like BS, probably is. After taking classes, practice a LOT. I cannot stress that enough. Guns are difficult tools. Improper operation can be very dangerous, or lead to a situation where the gun doesn't work when we need it the most. I've had people roll their eyes when I talk about constantly practicing, but I promise you, if they get into a shooting with someone who does practice, they will lose, for being unprepared.

Once a pistol and a caliber are chosen, shoot and choose acceptable bullets. Don't carry anything "full metal jacket." They pass through with minimal distortion and don't drop energy into the target. FMJ is for practice only. Don't buy specialty rounds like the RIP ammo. That stuff is made by off companies and has shit performance. Stick to reputable manufacturers. Winchester, Federal, Hornady, Remington, CCI, etc. I really like the performance of the CCI Gold Dot ammunition in my .40, and carry Federal Hydrashock in my .45. I've carried Winchester Ranger, which are the new version of the old SXT Black Talons that people claimed were magic, and illegal. Neither of those is true

Our department issues the Ranger for the .45s. However, at my last qual, where we shot our duty rounds, the second round was a failure to fire. Two solid firing pin strikes, so either a bad primer, or something else. Because of that, I'm done with them. I went back to the Federals.

The Remington Golden Sabers are great rounds, but very hot, so recoil is more pronounced. So much that I have a box I've never used. I use the Gold Dot instead.

Hornady makes great bullets, and all of their TAP series would be a good choice. Again, bullets are personal preference. These are not the only choices out there.

Finally, live and breathe the 4 firearms safety rules:

1. All guns are always loaded.

2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (This means the cat, the TV, an arm, leg, finger, foot, car door, brother, spouse, etc...)

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until the decision to fire has been made.

4. Know your target, what is beyond your target, and your target's surroundings.

Have fun, and good luck.

 
HotRodZilla posted: Remember that the LCP is a "contact" gun, meant for close distances. Close distances as in 0-7 feet. A large percentage of concealed carry confrontations are very close up. Most law enforcement shootings are 7 feet and in, and civilian self defense shootings follow that pattern.
This is very sound advice.

For home defense, think honestly about how far the target will be from you when you pull the trigger. Unless you live in a mansion, that distance won't exceed 25 feet. Your self-defense pistol and cartridges don't need to be accurate beyond that distance.

If your concept of "self-defense" means shooting at someone trespassing on your 20-acre ranch, then you may need to be accurate at longer distances -- but honestly, only if you can detect the intruder at longer distances and positively identify them as a bad guy rather than an adventure-seeking kid or a drunk neighbor.

In my suburban home, I will never need to shoot farther than 25 feet -- that's from my bedroom window to a typical corner of my back yard. Inside the house, there's only one shot of 25 feet: from the upstairs balcony to the front door. Every other inside shot -- like HRZ says -- is less than 10 feet.

So, my range time is concentrated on making double-shots at a sheet of copy paper 25 feet away. (That paper size is about the same as an adult's "effective target area".)

Don't forget that all you guys with 45 ACPs and other big-power cartridges will absolutely send your bullet through a wall. Maybe two walls. That's something to think about if you're shooting at something inside your home.

 
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I have a 20ga coach gun for home self defense. I also sleep with a seven round .357 revolver in a gun safe by my bed.

 
I agree, the sound of a pump being loaded is a fine deterrent. But... I have a Browning A5 12g autoloader and the sound of that second round being chambered is an even better one. (if you actually hear it)

I'm happy to never have used it on any human. But it's a beast against the ducks. Can't imagine the mess it would make of a homo sapien

 
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I agree, the sound of a pump being loaded is a fine deterrent. But... I have a Browning A5 12g autoloader and the sound of that second round being chambered is an even better one. (if you actually hear it)
I'm thinking if someone is supposed to be deterred by the sound of the second round chambering, their day has already gone to Hell. Semi-auto shotguns are fast and dangerous to anyone stupid enough to be a target.

On that note, I love my pump guns. My 870 is a work of art, and is a solid self defense tool. I've seen some say it's a bad idea, but a home defense SG loaded with heavy birdshot will cause devastating damage at in-house ranges. That tyoe.of round is less apt to penetrate through a wall than a load of 00 Buck. When I say that, understand that any round that penetrates a wall and hits someone on the other side has the potential to kill. Rounds that disperse energy better may just cause a small wound, but a bullet to the right place is lethal, with minimal penetration. Yet another reason for accurate shot placement.

 
I agree with everything Zilla said. If I had to add anything, it'd be a footnote to rule #4. Remember that you are liable for every bullet that leaves your gun, regardless of your intent, situation or circumstance.

Not really a great example, but we just had an asshole drug dealer shoot an officer a few days ago because he fired through the front door of his house as swat was breaking it down. It hit an officer across the street. All I've heard the last few days on the news was BS from his family saying that he's really not a bad guy and anybody would do the same thing if somebody was breaking their door down. Makes me sick that the local news gives these people air time. F**k his whole degenerate family.

The officer is going to make it, but he'll need a lot of reconstructive surgery to his face. Add to that, his wife is a dispatcher and was working when it happened.

More to the point, if you have an oops at the range (no excuse for this, but it does happen) and somebody gets hurt, you may be prosecuted and probably sued. If you're legitimately protecting yourself and hit an innocent, you're in deep doodoo. If it happens inside your home and goes through the wall and into a neighbor, you are responsible. Just my opinion, but I don't think this is stressed enough.

Lastly, if you do ever have to shoot someone to protect yourself, you should plan on being arrested and having to defend yourself legally ($$$$). Also plan on being sued by the attacker or their family. It's the shitty way our legal system works which is why carry insurance is a good idea.

 
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Thanks Zilla for your "opinions" , exactly the feedback I was hoping to get, especially from someone with your professional insight. I've never fired a Glock, but haven't been that impressed with them since they hit the market. A few friends have XD's and only have good things to say about them.

My son owns his own home and lives alone. I agree a shotgun loaded with birdshot would be the best "home defense" weapon, but I'm thinking he's looking for something he can also just shoot recreationally, and something for carry.

What's your opinion on Glazer Saftey Slugs?

My favorite 9mm pistol was a CZ-75. I could shoot 1-1/2" groups with it (using my own load) and it fit my hand like a glove...but it was a heavy hunk of steel to use as a concealed carry gun.

There's a gun show in the area this weekend, will likely see if he can go and we'll check out what's out there.

 
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Ooh, I'd forgotten about Glazer Safety Slugs. Years ago, I bought my wife a little hammerless S&W .38spcl and loaded those in it. They're made by Cor-Bon now, which makes cool bullets. The Powerball line is impressive. However, I just looked, because I didn't know how they're priced anymore. Holy cow, $32 for 20 rounds, and "winter" and "summer" loads. I think I'd stick with a conventional hollow point round, just for impact's sake. Remember, a lot of clowns are wearing body armor these days. A solid hit on body armor from a conventional round will hurt a lot, creating cavitation, maybe breaking ribs, and maybe loss of breath. It may take a shot off of the armor to fully stop their action, but a good hit may be enough to take the desire to continue from them or slow them down enough to take a more lethal off-armor shot. I don't know if a Safety Slug has the impact energy to do that.

Yet another reason to practice "failure drills" and "alternate failure drills." A standard Failure Drill is 2 rounds to the body and one round to the head. The alternate version is two to the body and additional rounds to the hip and groin area. Shots there are to basically breakdown body structure and stop an advance. Groin/hip shots also go through an area that has massive arteries. The chance of causing someone to bleed out, again stopping their violence, is high.

As far as pistols, CZ makes some bitchen semi-autos. Heavy, because they're all metal, but well built and accurate. A lot of competition guys are shooting them. I was thinking of getting my wife one to shoot for competition, but she's getting a 9mm S&W Shield for Christmas, and I think I'll get her a full size M&P so she is shooting the same platform.

KM, if your son is a big guy, a mid size gun may make a perfect concealed carry gun for him. A Glock 19 is a great midsized 9mm, and many other maufactures have followed suite with that size and configuration. Geezer says he has a KAHR PM9. I've heard nothing but good things about those. Again, I haven't shot one. There are so many guns available, that would have to my full-time job, if I wanted to get my hands on 90% of the pistols out there.

Ooooooh, that would be a good retirement job!!

 
HRZ: I used to get Glasers on occasion. Have you seen the "Box O Truth" web site? This one looks at Glasers and, as marketed, they didn't over penetrate. However, they might not penetrate enough given the results at:

https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-13-the-water-box-o-truth-part-2/

As for The LCP. I have one and found that the vestigial sights were mostly useless. I added a Crimson Trace LASER to it and that helped a lot.

After years and years, I'm a 1911 guy. Anything from Glock, Sig, etc. feel like trying to hold a 2x4. With that in mind, a 2" .38 Special revolver from Taurus is a step up from the LCP for summer wear. Winters give more CCW options and also demands better penetration because of the attacker more likely wearing layers of winter clothing.

 
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Wow gun talk and it's not even GlockTalk.

Just bought my wife a Springfield Armory Range Officer Operator Elite 1911 in 9mm.

She got me a Kimber Series I Custom Classic 1911 hard chromed, target sights with some tasteful aftermarket mods for the Holidays. Love that woman.

Family and firearms!

 
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