Family time with weapons

[Bill Lumberg]

I don’t like to advertise. Guns or profession. It’s not wrong, but advertising and leaving free guns in your car is a recipe for bad things. Any Glock out of the box is more accurate than the vast majority of shooters. From the box. Nothing wrong with knowledgeable polishing. But this can cause problems if done improperly. Practice is probably the best investment, dry or live, and as HRZ highlighted- there’s no help for a New York trigger. I’d rather carry a rock.

 

[JamesW]

Wear my NRA hat,-no stickers on vehicles, someone once said the less people know about you the better off you are. Have immensely enjoyed this thread to date, lots of wisdom here. Friend had a Trump sticker on truck, someone keyed it.

 

[HotRodZilla]

...there’s no help for a New York trigger. I’d rather carry a rock.

Yup. A rock would be easier to use!!

 

[Pterodactyl]

This has become the most touching family/firearm saga since the Menendez brothers became orphans.

I can see why someone in law enforcement would prefer a semi-auto, but when I carried often it was in Alaska and it was a .357 revolver. I generally only carried when out on a SnoGo or ATV. Reliability in tough conditions was my primary concern and if seven rounds didnt get the job done I was probably beat already.

 

[scubatech]

Zilla,

Good info on the 357 Sig. I've been drooling over a P229 Legion and was studying up on the 357 since all my guns are 9MM. I saw a test wear the 357 penetrated deeper than a .45 cal round. Recoil & muzzle flash are definitely important thing to consider as well as cost to shoot it. I guess overall it's hard to beat a 9MM especially for cost and fun to shoot.

 

[Geezer]

...there’s no help for a New York trigger. I’d rather carry a rock.

Yup. A rock would be easier to use!!

I forgot about the New York trigger. That came out back when people did not believe that the trigger safety would be effective. That was about the same time that the rumor was spread about Glocks being made out of plastic so they could pass through a metal detector.

I hope they don't still make that NY trigger.

 

[Knifemaker]

I always thought it was stupid to put that NRA sticker on your vehicle...it's like a sign to would be thieves saying "Gun or guns to steal here" (be it their car or their house) One guy even told me once that his NRA sticker really said- "Don't Fuck with me, I've got a gun" ....sure, if you are there. It might also say, "you'll have to shoot me first, then rob me.."

As for reliability it is hard to beat a good revolver. I owned 2 357's, a six inch barreled Ruger Security Six that had some trigger work done on it, and a four inch GP100. But do to the wide profile of the cylinder and my small size, neither was very "concealable". But if I was going for open carry, I'd be happy to have either on my hip. As far as "stopping power" goes, the .357 has a good track record. You can fire .38 Special rounds in it for practice, and it's an easy round to reload if you get into that.

I might slip my LCP into the glove box now and then, but where I live car break ins are pretty much nonexistent. If I go in towards the city, the gun stays in my right jacket pocket even when I'm driving. In summer my right pants pocket...which was the reason I picked the tiny gun for in the first place, I realized carrying a larger gun had me leaving it in the car or at home many times as it was just too heavy or uncomfortable on all occasions. So my rational there was - a smaller gun I carried all the time was a lot better than a bigger one I only carried some of the time.

I do think I might look at a different carry gun while shopping with my son...a "cut down" 1911 in .45 is still going to be what I look at first

 

[Pterodactyl]

When I took my concealed carry class in Fairbanks about 15 years ago I was provided a copy of a study that was done to determine the relative effectiveness of the different calibre of handguns. The researchers amassed as many police reports involving shootings as they could. It did not matter who did the shooting or who got shot. The standard that was applied was did the first round incapacitate the person who was shot. Did not have to be a kill, but the person had to be considered no longer able to present a threat to the shooter. The results were somewhat surprising to me. The .357 was the most effective by a substantial margin, but the brand and load of the ammo also played a big role. I do not remember the all the statistics of the study, but I do remember that the .357 firing a Federal round was the most effective combination... according to the study.

 

[Knifemaker]

It was the Federal .357 magnum 125 grain Jacketed Hollow Point.

 

[FJRay]

I always thought it was stupid to put that NRA sticker on your vehicle...it's like a sign to would be thieves saying "Gun or guns to steal here" (be it their car or their house) One guy even told me once that his NRA sticker really said- "Don't Fuck with me, I've got a gun" ....sure, if you are there. It might also say, "you'll have to shoot me first, then rob me.."
As for reliability it is hard to beat a good revolver. I owned 2 357's, a six inch barreled Ruger Security Six that had some trigger work done on it, and a four inch GP100. But do to the wide profile of the cylinder and my small size, neither was very "concealable". But if I was going for open carry, I'd be happy to have either on my hip. As far as "stopping power" goes, the .357 has a good track record. You can fire .38 Special rounds in it for practice, and it's an easy round to reload if you get into that.

I might slip my LCP into the glove box now and then, but where I live car break ins are pretty much nonexistent. If I go in towards the city, the gun stays in my right jacket pocket even when I'm driving. In summer my right pants pocket...which was the reason I picked the tiny gun for in the first place, I realized carrying a larger gun had me leaving it in the car or at home many times as it was just too heavy or uncomfortable on all occasions. So my rational there was - a smaller gun I carried all the time was a lot better than a bigger one I only carried some of the time.

I do think I might look at a different carry gun while shopping with my son...a "cut down" 1911 in .45 is still going to be what I look at first

I sure like my Springfield V10 ultra .45 it's commander size and has ported barrel and slide so there is virtually no muzzle flip and follow up shots are real quick. Also has an ambidextrous saftey so it's good for a lefty.

 

[jtdunc]

Zilla,
Good info on the 357 Sig. I've been drooling over a P229 Legion and was studying up on the 357 since all my guns are 9MM. I saw a test wear the 357 penetrated deeper than a .45 cal round. Recoil & muzzle flash are definitely important thing to consider as well as cost to shoot it. I guess overall it's hard to beat a 9MM especially for cost and fun to shoot.

@scubatech

On days when I'm feeling Sig-ish, I rock a P229 in 357 sig (also have an 40SW and 9mm conversion barrel). I carry 357 sig because it emulates the FPE of 357 magnum. Like 357 sig because it's more compact and I can't think of any semi-auto in 357 mag. But I would happily get a Colt Python or Trooper.

Why carry 357 sig? An FBI SA friend once told me about a BG that was shot in the leg with 357 sig and the round almost blew his whole leg off below the knee. Very powerful round. But if you want and can accurately manage more . . . they do make Sigs in 10mm:

https://s20.postimg.org/pvzinfpdp/20170415_181135.jpg

 

[scubatech]

Thanks for the info. I think it will be fun to own a couple different calibers as most folks here do. My neighbor likes bowling pin shoots, he uses a .44 Mag. That thing feels like a mule kick in the hand but it definitely knocks pins off the table!

 

[Knifemaker]

Well I think if you're in an actual gunfight...energy/penetration is important. (As well as accuracy) For a cop these are considerations. As Zilla points out, most confrontations a citizen finds themselves in, are under 10 feet, usually at point blank ranges.

There's been a increase in car jackings in the city here. These were at physical contact range, with the jacker pushing or pulling the victim out of the car. I'd think a .357, or even a 9mm would over penetrate here, and possibly be a threat to innocent bystanders. This was something I thought about when I chose the .380 round for a carry piece.

Granted, just like the possible crashing of your bike, you don't get to pick the how it happens, so making predictions on what gear you'd need for your safety is impossible....so you try and encompass as many scenarios as you can. I find it hard to believe I'll be firing at someone in a self defense scenario at more than 10 feet. If the other shooter is farther away than that I'll be looking for cover, or running away as fast as I can.

Most of the reported "self defense" shootings around here are break-ins. So having a "home defense" weapon and something else for carry outside of home makes sense to me....

 

[Bounce]

I carry 357 sig because it emulates the FPE of 357 magnum. Like 357 sig because it's more compact and I can't think of any semi-auto in 357 mag.

Desert Eagle does (and .44 Mag) but they are far from concealable.

Just watched an interview with an FBI wonk who said they are converting back to 9mm. Since 1985 they dropped the .38 Special and the 9mm because of its failures during a catastrophic encounter in Fla. That even lead to their RFQ which created the 10mm and then the 40 S&W. What his point was that it was coming back as much as that the bullet designs of the 9mm have been improving so much since then that there's reduced differences than in the past. So much so that their desire for more accuracy and control in the hands of agents has floated to the top in priorities.

Whether that's true or they want to present a message that criminals will run with so that their agents are faced with less effective ammo in the hands of "bad guys" might be a question some of the more cynical might ask.

It's above my pay grade but the Fostech Origin 12 seems like a nice home defense choice for those with the bucks. A 12 Ga with box magazines so you can have a box pre-loaded with lighter loads (0000 Buck) and a quick swap (00 Buck or slugs) if you find yourself up against determined intruders.

 

[Knifemaker]

Yeah, I keep 12 gauge loaded with the first two rounds being #6 bird shot and the next two Hollow point slugs. Guy at worked showed me the slug round he pulled out of a deer he took down, it was a copper jacketed sabot that mushroomed out to about the diameter of a quarter. Pretty impressive.

 

[HotRodZilla]

KM, I seriously doubt many hollow-point handgun rounds will over penetrate and damage another target. Not impossible, so backdrop should be considered, but not likely. That's why Full Metal Jacket bullets should only be used for practice.

Yes, a 9mm is moving, but compared to rifle velocities, pistols seriously lack. Even the FN56 doesn't have an over penetration problem, IF the rounds are designed to disperse their energy and not a FMJ or some other weird varient. Obviously, the bullet has to do what it was designed to do.

I know we've mostly glossed over revolvers, but they are an excellent concealed carry gun. Simple, very reduced possibility of a malfunction, and with the heavier double-action trigger pulls, not likely to "accidently" go off. Reloading them takes longer, but someone said it above: if whatever you've gotten into takes more than 6 rounds, you may need to re-evaluate exactly what it is you're doing.

 

[jtdunc]

I carry 357 sig because it emulates the FPE of 357 magnum. Like 357 sig because it's more compact and I can't think of any semi-auto in 357 mag.

Desert Eagle does (and .44 Mag) but they are far from concealable.

Just watched an interview with an FBI wonk who said they are converting back to 9mm. Since 1985 they dropped the .38 Special and the 9mm because of its failures during a catastrophic encounter in Fla. That even lead to their RFQ which created the 10mm and then the 40 S&W. What his point was that it was coming back as much as that the bullet designs of the 9mm have been improving so much since then that there's reduced differences than in the past. So much so that their desire for more accuracy and control in the hands of agents has floated to the top in priorities.

Whether that's true or they want to present a message that criminals will run with so that their agents are faced with less effective ammo in the hands of "bad guys" might be a question some of the more cynical might ask.

Modern bullet design in quality SD rounds has closed the gap between 9mm, 40SW and 45ACP. With most rounds designed to penetrate 12", over-penetration should not be an issue unless you're shooting a truly magnum ammo inside tight spaces. Federal HST/HydraShoks, Gold Dots, Golden Sabres, Horn Critical Defense, Win Ranger, Sig Sauer SD - all good ammo: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

But when you're training accountants, attorneys and chemists to be special agents, the risk of failing firearms training is high. Combine that with the facts that SAs are not pulling the trigger and are not involved in gunfights compared to local muni officers /deputies like Jim Cirillo or state trooper who encounter gun situations more regularly. Combine that with more and more law enforcement officer canidates have less gun experience than their parents, and you need to get them skilled quick. When the SW 1076 in 10mm hit the FBI Academy, more than a few candidates could not qualify, so they moved to the 40SW and now to the 9mm. Hence, the need for an effective round with minimal kick = 9mm. Seems like they're stepping down and down.

But back to family and firearms, my son is approaching the gold age of CCW majority. Sure he'll want a Glock 19 but maybe a G26 as it's slightly more concealable. Once they hit 21, we train and carry - as a family.

 

[steveoreno]

Thanks Zilla for your "opinions" , exactly the feedback I was hoping to get, especially from someone with your professional insight. I've never fired a Glock, but haven't been that impressed with them since they hit the market. A few friends have XD's and only have good things to say about them.
My son owns his own home and lives alone. I agree a shotgun loaded with birdshot would be the best "home defense" weapon, but I'm thinking he's looking for something he can also just shoot recreationally, and something for carry.

What's your opinion on Glazer Saftey Slugs?

My favorite 9mm pistol was a CZ-75. I could shoot 1-1/2" groups with it (using my own load) and it fit my hand like a glove...but it was a heavy hunk of steel to use as a concealed carry gun.

There's a gun show in the area this weekend, will likely see if he can go and we'll check out what's out there.

I have a CZ PO1 and love it for concealed carry but during the warmer weather I like my smaller 9 which is a Ruger LC - 9S. Have fun, pistol shopping is one of my favorite things.

 

[JIMMY REB]

On the tpoic of stickers. Gun stickers or NRA sticker on your veh is probable cause for a stop and search in the state of New York.

Probably is not known in the rest of the country, but NY does not care about federal transport laws. They will stop you and search, arrest and confiscate.

I have NO stickers on my truck.

I have thought about putting some liberal political sticker on so they would ignore me.

 

[Knifemaker]

How about this one?

Available here:

https://www.amazon.com/NO-GUNS-Window-Bumper-Sticker/dp/B00434ZXD8