Father with family in SUV chased, beaten by speed-demon bikers

[Fred W]

And what's wrong with avoiding a precarious situation if slowing down on your part facilitates that? All I expect of other commuters is to do their part to avoid the other vehicle sharing the public roadway. No, I don't expect it, but what the hell is wrong with common courtesy to promote road safety? Why be a part of the problem?

We really should take this discussion to another thread because it has little bearing on this situation.

I've split off another thread to discuss this further here: "Merging onto a Highway" thread

 

[bobg3723]

Going back to Lien's actions at the time of the brake check, Lien had AN OBLIGATION to slow down regardless of the idiot MC's mental state. Whether he could have pulled that off is another matter altogether. The bikers participating in the melee should all hang for sure. Mies put himself in a bad situation with a panicked cager even if he is alleged to simply trying to calm things down. I don't care what Mies's past record was because that irrelevant to the events leading up to him getting mowed down. Mies alleged intent to resolve the situation ultimately brought about bad decisions to park your bike in the middle of the street even if you're trying to help if that were the facts and end being part of the problem.

You say Lien had AN OBLIGATION to slow down. The video clearly shows that he did slow down. The only real obligation he had was to protect his family. I'd say he tried to do that in the only way he could. Since none of us were there in the SUV with Lien we don't know how we would have reacted or what Lien actually was thinking. I am thinking I would have attempted to run over as many of these cockroaches as I could fit under my wheels.

Regarding the "Past Record" of the thugs involved, it may have had no bearing on what Lien was thinking. Certainly we can judge that he was acting the part of a man with that sort of record and Lien could not have helped but seen what he was dealing with. It most certainly allows us to judge in hindsight. I judge him very deserving of a life spent in a wheelchair and a diaper. It is a fact that he was no benefit to society for the first part of his life, he may as well continue as a parasite. At least he will be a harmless parasite now.

I fail to see how anyone has an obligation to slow down and let these criminals play in the road. What you advocate equals cowardice. It may work for you, I'd rather be remembered as a brave jackass than a coward.

Oh, was it Mies who brake checked Lien, or was it Cruz? Never mind answering that because you seem to not discriminate among who did what to whom. FWIW, how you want to be remembered doesn't mesh with what rule of law dictates. Indulging in all your issues over bravery is a straw man argument, so start another thread talking about bravery, valor, bravado, whatever. Let the courts sort this out rather than advocating taking the law into your own hands. Yeah if running over a mob means life, then you take life. But, before you rush to judgement, let the facts of the case come forth. All the facts.

 

[bobg3723]

Going back to Lien's actions at the time of the brake check, Lien had AN OBLIGATION to slow down regardless of the idiot MC's mental state. Whether he could have pulled that off is another matter altogether. The bikers participating in the melee should all hang for sure. Mies put himself in a bad situation with a panicked cager even if he is alleged to simply trying to calm things down. I don't care what Mies's past record was because that irrelevant to the events leading up to him getting mowed down. Mies alleged intent to resolve the situation ultimately brought about bad decisions to park your bike in the middle of the street even if you're trying to help if that were the facts and end being part of the problem.

You say Lien had AN OBLIGATION to slow down. The video clearly shows that he did slow down. The only real obligation he had was to protect his family. I'd say he tried to do that in the only way he could. Since none of us were there in the SUV with Lien we don't know how we would have reacted or what Lien actually was thinking. I am thinking I would have attempted to run over as many of these cockroaches as I could fit under my wheels.

Regarding the "Past Record" of the thugs involved, it may have had no bearing on what Lien was thinking. Certainly we can judge that he was acting the part of a man with that sort of record and Lien could not have helped but seen what he was dealing with. It most certainly allows us to judge in hindsight. I judge him very deserving of a life spent in a wheelchair and a diaper. It is a fact that he was no benefit to society for the first part of his life, he may as well continue as a parasite. At least he will be a harmless parasite now.

I fail to see how anyone has an obligation to slow down and let these criminals play in the road. What you advocate equals cowardice. It may work for you, I'd rather be remembered as a brave jackass than a coward.

First off, avoiding a collision is part of protecting your family. You seem to accept the blanket idea that he made every effort to slow his vehicle. I beg to differ and my reason is this: In the video, if you check out the relative speed difference between the two as Cruz began his deceleration. To me it looks like it's about a 5MPH or so. If Cruz's rate of deceleration were leaving skidmarks, then there's no question Lien couldn't stop his SUV in time. Now what is the reason Lien's SUV was unable match that speed and even effect a greater difference in deceleration? Was Lien measuring his braking response so that a rear tap of the wheel to teach Cruz a lesson were inevitable?

I've heard no word yet that Lien was being pursued by the mob prior to Cruz brake checking Lien. At the point weapons were drawn in the tire slashing that's alleged to have occurred, so they were too bad for bikers blocking his exit. But Mies is guilty of participating in an illegal activity but he didn't assault LIen's family directly. So that goes back to the question I have: Did Lien turn from being the protagonist into the antagonist in response to Cruz blocking him? Did Lien follow suite in a tit-for-tat?

Nobody is exempt from the law. The bikers will be doled out their respective punishment. Lien was defending the life of his family after he was stopped but was there a tit-for tat situation between Cruz and Lien is my bone of contention.

 

[SouthernCruizer]

Reginald Chance in court ...

 

[Chuck35]

He must be a member over at ADV

 

[chivvalry]

He must be a member over at ADV

Now... That's funny right there...

 

[Fred W]

He must be a member over at ADV

FYYFF!!

 

[Redfish Hunter]

It is always refreshing when an arrow hits its mark. Apparently the term "coward" ruffled some feathers. From here it looks like a white feather.

 

[HotRodZilla]

It is always refreshing when an arrow hits its mark. Apparently the term "coward" ruffled some feathers. From here it looks like a white feather.

Awww Hell...Here we go. Why don't you leave the bickering to professionals like FredW, Bust, Don, Skooter or me. Don't get involved...It just hurts feelings. Or knock yourselves out...Sometimes it's fun to sit back and watch the fireworks without having to light the fuse.

Besides...I don't see any feathers, just fingers! That's gonna make the judge happy!!

Hey Your Honor...

Gimme a light sentence...M'k?

 

[bobg3723]

Reginald Chance in court ...

Chance: Hey yer honor, see here.... you can gib muh this many yeahzzz, hehehe. Judge: Ok, you're in for eleven.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Imagine if that guy was your proctologist??

 

[wnyfjr]

Imagine if that guy was your proctologist??

<runs away covering his ass>

 

[bobg3723]

Imagine if that guy was your proctologist??

Add's new meaning to getting "double billed".

 

[HotRodZilla]

Imagine if that guy was your proctologist??

You know sir, the back of your throat feels a little dry from here. You getting enough fluids??

 

[bwv]

Reginald Chance in court ...

Reginald's answer to the judge asking... "Do you know what your IQ is son?"

(2... 11... take your pick...)

This mentality is the cause of this whole issue... I am sad the post chose to use the term "Biker" on this parasite...

 

[TripperMike]

Earlier someone had asked where all the NYPD LEOs were during this whole incident including the chase. Well apparently they were there the whole time. Some of the bikers involved in the chase were off duty NYPD, and on top of that, they were standing nearby during the assault and doing NOTHING. This just keeps getting better.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

Going back to Lien's actions at the time of the brake check, Lien had AN OBLIGATION to slow down regardless of the idiot MC's mental state. Whether he could have pulled that off is another matter altogether. The bikers participating in the melee should all hang for sure. Mies put himself in a bad situation with a panicked cager even if he is alleged to simply trying to calm things down. I don't care what Mies's past record was because that irrelevant to the events leading up to him getting mowed down. Mies alleged intent to resolve the situation ultimately brought about bad decisions to park your bike in the middle of the street even if you're trying to help if that were the facts and end being part of the problem.

You say Lien had AN OBLIGATION to slow down. The video clearly shows that he did slow down. The only real obligation he had was to protect his family. I'd say he tried to do that in the only way he could. Since none of us were there in the SUV with Lien we don't know how we would have reacted or what Lien actually was thinking. I am thinking I would have attempted to run over as many of these cockroaches as I could fit under my wheels.

Regarding the "Past Record" of the thugs involved, it may have had no bearing on what Lien was thinking. Certainly we can judge that he was acting the part of a man with that sort of record and Lien could not have helped but seen what he was dealing with. It most certainly allows us to judge in hindsight. I judge him very deserving of a life spent in a wheelchair and a diaper. It is a fact that he was no benefit to society for the first part of his life, he may as well continue as a parasite. At least he will be a harmless parasite now.

I fail to see how anyone has an obligation to slow down and let these criminals play in the road. What you advocate equals cowardice. It may work for you, I'd rather be remembered as a brave jackass than a coward.

First off, avoiding a collision is part of protecting your family. You seem to accept the blanket idea that he made every effort to slow his vehicle. I beg to differ and my reason is this: In the video, if you check out the relative speed difference between the two as Cruz began his deceleration. To me it looks like it's about a 5MPH or so. If Cruz's rate of deceleration were leaving skidmarks, then there's no question Lien couldn't stop his SUV in time. Now what is the reason Lien's SUV was unable match that speed and even effect a greater difference in deceleration? Was Lien measuring his braking response so that a rear tap of the wheel to teach Cruz a lesson were inevitable?

I've heard no word yet that Lien was being pursued by the mob prior to Cruz brake checking Lien. At the point weapons were drawn in the tire slashing that's alleged to have occurred, so they were too bad for bikers blocking his exit. But Mies is guilty of participating in an illegal activity but he didn't assault LIen's family directly. So that goes back to the question I have: Did Lien turn from being the protagonist into the antagonist in response to Cruz blocking him? Did Lien follow suite in a tit-for-tat?

Nobody is exempt from the law. The bikers will be doled out their respective punishment. Lien was defending the life of his family after he was stopped but was there a tit-for tat situation between Cruz and Lien is my bone of contention.

My "Bone of Contention" is that none of us actually know what Lien was thinking and whether he hit Thug 1 on purpose.

You assume he could have/should have stopped before he tapped Thug 1.

We have a man surrounded by what was definitely a hostile crowd and his attention was diverted in all directions. Add to this what I am sure was a hysterical and upset wife. Now the term we keep using is "Brake Checked". Instead I'll use "Forced to Stop" by a hostile group of thugs. It does not matter what took place prior to the video. The man was being forced into a stop by a group of thugs. In that situation I say he had no obligation to stop. He should have hit Thug 1 hard enough to take him completely out of play. As for Mieses, (Thug 2) he was running with the wrong crowd. He was a thug, he was part of a group of thugs and he suffered a thug's fate.

Now you want to assign blame to Lien because he broke the law by tapping Thug 1. Odd for a man with a criminal mindset to not tear off at a high rate of speed and or start swerving and taking out thugs as he went. For a man you say deliberately broke the law by hitting Thug 1 he sure behaved like a law abiding citizen for the rest of his little joyride. Was he so frightened that he lacked consistency? It has been documented that Mrs. Lien made numerous 911 calls during this attack. I have not seen any of the Thugs desperately seeking help from the law on their cell phones.

I say that when any of us look out the window at a group of "bikers" we are all guilty of making assumptions. It is easy to tell the difference between The Hell's Angels and a group of regular guys even though both groups are riding Harleys. I would not worry for my safety if I were surrounded by a large group of GoldWings, FJRs, or even BMW GSs. I could probably dodge any BMW oil slicks. There is a noticeable difference between your typical "spirited" sportbike rider and a group of law breaking thugs.

My attitude, my driving, and my mindset all change depending on the danger or lack thereof outside my window. While I might smile and wave to a group of GoldWing guys a group of young thugs might make me feel for my knife. We all react to what we see. That is part of surviving.

I say that Lien would have been completely stupid to stop for Thug 1. I will go further to say that even though I have complete respect for the law, I also have complete respect for courage. A man who will not be bullied, a man who does what he has to do in defense of his family is to be respected. A man who rolls over and exposes the soft underbelly of cowardice gets gutted by the wolves. I say that a man who makes a stand should be afforded the full protection of the law. I further say that to sit behind the comfort and safety of our computers and attempt to pass judgement is worse than foolish. It exposes what I have long believed. In this world there are 3 kinds of people. There are sheep. There are wolves. There are sheepdogs. Some folks lack the honesty to admit which group they fit into.

 

[bwv]

And there are Red Squirrels... I like Red Squirrels, they got balls... A Red Squirrel will sit on your front porch lookin at you yellin' at 'em while they eat the Hamburger Rolls you had on the shelf of your BBQ grill waiting fer your Cheese to melt over your Bacon.... Hell.. I bet even some Wolves are afraid of Red Squirrels... (Probably not a sheepdog though.. those guys are goddamn tough)

There are also tiny, little, filthy, feces eating, blood sucking, parasites that live in the intestines of all of the aformentioned woodland creatures... screwing up the works and messing up they way shit is supposed to happen(pun intended) while the host animal is powerless to do anything about it but wait it out and wipe carefully for a while or go get some help. This is where that group of thug bikers fits in.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Going back to Lien's actions at the time of the brake check, Lien had AN OBLIGATION to slow down regardless of the idiot MC's mental state. Whether he could have pulled that off is another matter altogether. The bikers participating in the melee should all hang for sure. Mies put himself in a bad situation with a panicked cager even if he is alleged to simply trying to calm things down. I don't care what Mies's past record was because that irrelevant to the events leading up to him getting mowed down. Mies alleged intent to resolve the situation ultimately brought about bad decisions to park your bike in the middle of the street even if you're trying to help if that were the facts and end being part of the problem.

You say Lien had AN OBLIGATION to slow down. The video clearly shows that he did slow down. The only real obligation he had was to protect his family. I'd say he tried to do that in the only way he could. Since none of us were there in the SUV with Lien we don't know how we would have reacted or what Lien actually was thinking. I am thinking I would have attempted to run over as many of these cockroaches as I could fit under my wheels.

Regarding the "Past Record" of the thugs involved, it may have had no bearing on what Lien was thinking. Certainly we can judge that he was acting the part of a man with that sort of record and Lien could not have helped but seen what he was dealing with. It most certainly allows us to judge in hindsight. I judge him very deserving of a life spent in a wheelchair and a diaper. It is a fact that he was no benefit to society for the first part of his life, he may as well continue as a parasite. At least he will be a harmless parasite now.

I fail to see how anyone has an obligation to slow down and let these criminals play in the road. What you advocate equals cowardice. It may work for you, I'd rather be remembered as a brave jackass than a coward.

First off, avoiding a collision is part of protecting your family. You seem to accept the blanket idea that he made every effort to slow his vehicle. I beg to differ and my reason is this: In the video, if you check out the relative speed difference between the two as Cruz began his deceleration. To me it looks like it's about a 5MPH or so. If Cruz's rate of deceleration were leaving skidmarks, then there's no question Lien couldn't stop his SUV in time. Now what is the reason Lien's SUV was unable match that speed and even effect a greater difference in deceleration? Was Lien measuring his braking response so that a rear tap of the wheel to teach Cruz a lesson were inevitable?

I've heard no word yet that Lien was being pursued by the mob prior to Cruz brake checking Lien. At the point weapons were drawn in the tire slashing that's alleged to have occurred, so they were too bad for bikers blocking his exit. But Mies is guilty of participating in an illegal activity but he didn't assault LIen's family directly. So that goes back to the question I have: Did Lien turn from being the protagonist into the antagonist in response to Cruz blocking him? Did Lien follow suite in a tit-for-tat?

Nobody is exempt from the law. The bikers will be doled out their respective punishment. Lien was defending the life of his family after he was stopped but was there a tit-for tat situation between Cruz and Lien is my bone of contention.

My "Bone of Contention" is that none of us actually know what Lien was thinking and whether he hit Thug 1 on purpose.

You assume he could have/should have stopped before he tapped Thug 1.

We have a man surrounded by what was definitely a hostile crowd and his attention was diverted in all directions. Add to this what I am sure was a hysterical and upset wife. Now the term we keep using is "Brake Checked". Instead I'll use "Forced to Stop" by a hostile group of thugs. It does not matter what took place prior to the video. The man was being forced into a stop by a group of thugs. In that situation I say he had no obligation to stop. He should have hit Thug 1 hard enough to take him completely out of play. As for Mieses, (Thug 2) he was running with the wrong crowd. He was a thug, he was part of a group of thugs and he suffered a thug's fate.

Now you want to assign blame to Lien because he broke the law by tapping Thug 1. Odd for a man with a criminal mindset to not tear off at a high rate of speed and or start swerving and taking out thugs as he went. For a man you say deliberately broke the law by hitting Thug 1 he sure behaved like a law abiding citizen for the rest of his little joyride. Was he so frightened that he lacked consistency? It has been documented that Mrs. Lien made numerous 911 calls during this attack. I have not seen any of the Thugs desperately seeking help from the law on their cell phones.

I say that when any of us look out the window at a group of "bikers" we are all guilty of making assumptions. It is easy to tell the difference between The Hell's Angels and a group of regular guys even though both groups are riding Harleys. I would not worry for my safety if I were surrounded by a large group of GoldWings, FJRs, or even BMW GSs. I could probably dodge any BMW oil slicks. There is a noticeable difference between your typical "spirited" sportbike rider and a group of law breaking thugs.

My attitude, my driving, and my mindset all change depending on the danger or lack thereof outside my window. While I might smile and wave to a group of GoldWing guys a group of young thugs might make me feel for my knife. We all react to what we see. That is part of surviving.

I say that Lien would have been completely stupid to stop for Thug 1. I will go further to say that even though I have complete respect for the law, I also have complete respect for courage. A man who will not be bullied, a man who does what he has to do in defense of his family is to be respected. A man who rolls over and exposes the soft underbelly of cowardice gets gutted by the wolves. I say that a man who makes a stand should be afforded the full protection of the law. I further say that to sit behind the comfort and safety of our computers and attempt to pass judgement is worse than foolish. It exposes what I have long believed. In this world there are 3 kinds of people. There are sheep. There are wolves. There are sheepdogs. Some folks lack the honesty to admit which group they fit into.

I tried to like that, but was told, "You have reached your limit of positives for the day." That being the case, I think I should be gifted some negatives to throw around also. Too many positives??? WTF? It's a conspiracy I tell you.

You guys think thugs are pissed that they are being grouped in with these assholes? I mean, even thugs have a code. Like pirates!

 

[Bugnatr]

Imagine if that guy was your proctologist??

You sick bastage