Father with family in SUV chased, beaten by speed-demon bikers
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HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Fred has a point. Cars that are merging do not have the right of way. They have to yield the right of way to the cars already in their lanes. Is slowing and letting someone in considerate?? Sure it is. Is gunning it to keep your space, making it harder for the guy trying to merge self centered and ass-hatted. Most times it is. However, how many times have you let someone into the space in front of you just to find out they are going to go 10 under the limit while they put on their makeup, drink their coffee, read their paper, or yap on their goddammed cell phone?? I hate letting people in; although, I do it.
The other thing to consider is Lein was NOT merging. He was driving steadily in his lane, and at the time of the impact, was not driving very fast. Looking at that video, I'd say less than 40 +/-. So why did the Stunta idiot feel the need to cut in front of the SUV, an jam the brakes?? He obviously had an agenda, because he was breaking his neck to see the car behind him. I think it was his intent to either be bumped, or force Lein to either stop, or drive extremely slowly. Given the lack of traffic, I think Wheaties hit it when he said the bikes were going to block traffic to perform their stunts on the road for the camera.
And as far as Mesies...Well...Remember a while back, we talked about guns not helping this situation because innocent bystanders could be harmed?? Did you also notice the bikes that stayed away from Lein's car had no injuries? That's because they were not involved. Lein's SUV didn't "fly into the air" simply because it ran over Meises...Lein drove over one or two bikes that were blocking him in. So, again, if Meises didn't want to get hurt, he should have kept going and stayed out of it. Instead, he was looking to lead the mob and get his licks in, thinking he was going to get away with whatever he did by merging into the crowd.
Sorry, but looking at Meises' record and his family's reaction, it was just a matter of time before this happene to him anyway. His lawyer is an idiot..."The revoked driver's license is not relevant because he was not riding his motorcycle at the time." (paraphrased cuz I can't remember exactly what she said.) BUT...How the Hell did he get there?? He jumped on his MC and rode there, and then proceeded to engage in more illegal activity. His revoked DL is not just a reflection on his inability to drive, it is a reflection of his lack of maturity and inability to make rational decisions. He's a jackass and is now paying the price for having the mentality of a 6 year old.
Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
Let me give HotRodZilla and Fred W a big happy Amen! Of course it's just a little weird when those two agree on anything.
Fred, tell me more about these pet peeves would you? Are peeves easy to take care of? Do they make good pets? Are they difficult to housebreak? I'd like to get a nice family pet.
Actually, I do have one of those "peeves". The one I hate is the fool in the left lane going exactly the same speed as the guy in the right lane so no one can get to the speed limit and no one can pass.
Meises got almost what he deserved. He was an asshat. My fondest wish is that instead of getting a nice settlement he gets punished even more.
I do know that if I ever want to commit a crime I am going to do it in New York City. Apparently even when they have you on videotape and there is an undercover police officer present you can still get away with anything.
Fred, tell me more about these pet peeves would you? Are peeves easy to take care of? Do they make good pets? Are they difficult to housebreak? I'd like to get a nice family pet.
Actually, I do have one of those "peeves". The one I hate is the fool in the left lane going exactly the same speed as the guy in the right lane so no one can get to the speed limit and no one can pass.
Meises got almost what he deserved. He was an asshat. My fondest wish is that instead of getting a nice settlement he gets punished even more.
I do know that if I ever want to commit a crime I am going to do it in New York City. Apparently even when they have you on videotape and there is an undercover police officer present you can still get away with anything.
bobg3723
Well-known member
My personal experience the other day wasn't to compare or contrast anything about merging but about reasonable behavior and personal responsability on the road. It's reckless for anyone to speed up to a point where you're not only racing to cut off merging traffic as said asshole did to the point of now tailgating the car in front of both of us just to cut me off. The "3-second" rule be damned, I guess. We ALL must excercise rational behavior in sharing the road. Fred, you weren't there to call it and simply stating the rules to me isn't the complete picture. Thankfully, that lead foot only hurt my feelings,hehe.
So let me ask any of you with a differing opinion: a person crosses the street illegally, woudn't you try everything in your power to avoid the jaywalker even if it were evident he was maliciously coming towards your car? You are not allowed to escalate force to stop him but to evade him. So a vehicle overtakes you and brake checks you and you're aware of other cars boxing you in and you don't have time to analyze the intent of the vehicles on both lanes of you and with little choice in the few seconds you have I ask you would the prudent thing to do at this point be to hit the brakes rather than risk swerving into occupied lanes? Of course Cruz had an idiot's agenda. But the only reasonable response at this juncture that Lien needed to exercise at the time of Cruz's brake checking him was to avoid random punk on a MC and slam on the brakes if it were in his power to do so . That's my point about reasonable response. And no one here can tell me whether or not Lien himself was stomping on the brake pedal or just feathering it enough to make a counterpoint with his SUV's bumper. Personally, I want to think that Lien did everthing in his power to avoid this madman. If this does make it to a civil trial (big if), then what would a jury think if the defense convinces them that Lien turned from protagonist to antagonist when going up against Cruz? Would they think, oh yeah, Lien didn't want to back down to this shit head and tapped this back wheel in response to this aggressive incursion by this idot Cruz and so now he became part of the problem that escalated into a shit storm!
So let me ask any of you with a differing opinion: a person crosses the street illegally, woudn't you try everything in your power to avoid the jaywalker even if it were evident he was maliciously coming towards your car? You are not allowed to escalate force to stop him but to evade him. So a vehicle overtakes you and brake checks you and you're aware of other cars boxing you in and you don't have time to analyze the intent of the vehicles on both lanes of you and with little choice in the few seconds you have I ask you would the prudent thing to do at this point be to hit the brakes rather than risk swerving into occupied lanes? Of course Cruz had an idiot's agenda. But the only reasonable response at this juncture that Lien needed to exercise at the time of Cruz's brake checking him was to avoid random punk on a MC and slam on the brakes if it were in his power to do so . That's my point about reasonable response. And no one here can tell me whether or not Lien himself was stomping on the brake pedal or just feathering it enough to make a counterpoint with his SUV's bumper. Personally, I want to think that Lien did everthing in his power to avoid this madman. If this does make it to a civil trial (big if), then what would a jury think if the defense convinces them that Lien turned from protagonist to antagonist when going up against Cruz? Would they think, oh yeah, Lien didn't want to back down to this shit head and tapped this back wheel in response to this aggressive incursion by this idot Cruz and so now he became part of the problem that escalated into a shit storm!
MEM
Well-known member
Har-de-har-har, Papa Chuy and Bob (and Doug and Dave)Can't be. She is touching the ground flat-footed.Hudson, didn't our MaryEllen - MEM star in this movie? jes' sayin' and nuff said!
I'm going to get me a pair of those kitten boots and I'll show you guys
TomInPA
Well-known member
I experienced a similar thing on Hwy 50 enroute from South Lake Tahoe towards Sacramento. A sports car club was feeling entitled to the road and at a passing lane, the lead car pulled in front of me and braked, allowing the group behind to pass. I didn't feel threatened but I had to swallow some road rage and accept it. The CHP was having a conversation with some of the members further down the hill.
A large band of renegade bikers would be a completely different threat, especially if I had family in the car. FWIW I think Lien could have avoided the initial collision, although a "brake check" is not an expected event. The threat and confusion around him resulting in fear...fight or flight. The results are easily understandable. Outlaw activity resulted in a predictable result. Someone got hurt.
A large band of renegade bikers would be a completely different threat, especially if I had family in the car. FWIW I think Lien could have avoided the initial collision, although a "brake check" is not an expected event. The threat and confusion around him resulting in fear...fight or flight. The results are easily understandable. Outlaw activity resulted in a predictable result. Someone got hurt.
Greg 03
Well-known member
Simply put riding a motorcycle is a dangerous activity just because of the inherent risk of being on the road with much larger vehicles. I'm sure we all have horror stories of near misses. I have them every day just about because I ride a lot more frequently than most people. But, when you purposely put yourself in harm's way to try to intimidate someone who has a several thousand pound advantage over you, well, you should have a reasonable expectation of losing that fight in a big way and have nobody to blame but yourself.
SouthernCruizer
Is it Beer:30 yet?
BkerChuck
Second hand vegetarian
Just suppose for a minute that Lien had responded quickly enough to the "brake check" performed right in front of him. Given the number of these miscreants and the close proximity many of them were riding in to the Range Rover, I think there's a fair chance one or more may have then hit Lien from the behind. These clowns were looking to provoke an incident and if not Lien then somebody else. I'm amazed at Lien s self control at not swerving side to side and playing pinball with the bikes. Reports seem to indicate his wife made 4 calls to 911 during this whole affair and it's now come out that during the beating of Lien, one of the witnesses among the biker crowd was an off duty, undercover NYPD officer. Even if he didn't want to blow his cover, why didn't he step in and try to pull them off of Lien advising them to get the hell out of there? This whole affair really sickens me in the sense that once more motorcyclists are going to be viewed by far to many of the nonriding public as being a part of this sort of problem.
Chuck35
Well-known member
And I wonder just how long was the off duty officer willing to stand back? There was a knife used on Lien ffs.
My guess is the cop didn't want to admit his off duty involvement with this band of miscreants but was caught on video.
My guess is the cop didn't want to admit his off duty involvement with this band of miscreants but was caught on video.
bwv
Well-known member
If i was riding with a group of guys, and a member of that group was hit and went down in the roadway...regarless of who caused it... i would, as many of you would, stop and try to help my fellow rider, or try to help control traffic so that the downed rider did not get hit again.
The simple fact that most of these guys decided it was more important to chase down the suv and record a video of it, than it was to assure their freinds got help...or at the very least did not get hit again, indicates the mentality they had when they caused this situation.
They were there looking to be tough guys...show off, impose thier will upon others, show how powerful their mob was, and stir up some shit... they suceeded, and now several people's lives are changed for the worse...permanently.
Hands down.. the guy who rode up next to the suv so close, in the same lane... then cut off and brake checked that same suv, caused this whole thing.
If he had not done that.... had not made that last agressive tap on the brake pedal... we'd be typing about how great the leaves look this time of year, or how well our new farkle fits.
The simple fact that most of these guys decided it was more important to chase down the suv and record a video of it, than it was to assure their freinds got help...or at the very least did not get hit again, indicates the mentality they had when they caused this situation.
They were there looking to be tough guys...show off, impose thier will upon others, show how powerful their mob was, and stir up some shit... they suceeded, and now several people's lives are changed for the worse...permanently.
Hands down.. the guy who rode up next to the suv so close, in the same lane... then cut off and brake checked that same suv, caused this whole thing.
If he had not done that.... had not made that last agressive tap on the brake pedal... we'd be typing about how great the leaves look this time of year, or how well our new farkle fits.
My prior response to your merging example was not saying that the guy speeding up was in the right to cut you off. He was not, and I even said so in that same response. He should have maintained his speed and allowed you to do what you need to do to merge. What I was responding to specifically was what I had bolded in your post: "rather than adjusting his speed to allow me to ingress, "
Sure, speeding up to cut off a merging driver/rider is wrong. But so is slowing down to accommodate them. And an expectation from merging drivers that the existing traffic should "be nice" and adjust their speed to allow them to merge is what is a big part of what goes wrong with traffic in the US. Sorry that you misunderstood my intent. I should have trimmed the quote down to just that sentence.
FWIW, if you leave three seconds between cars on the highway around here in the extended metro-Boston area three other cars will fill that space in a blink of an eye. Seriously.
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Intech
Mr. Camping Meet
There is enough video evidence to support the fact that Lien was fleeing, because he felt he and his family were in grave danger. After feeing the first situation the video clearly shows him maintaining his lane at a steady speed while still being surrounded by motorcycles. He very easily could have changed lanes and targeted any motorcycles that came close to him. Look at the actions of the ones that did. It was clear that that was what they were expecting. Lien maintained a cool head and didn't escalate it. Again his mistake was getting off the open road. I also think that the fact that Lien has not been charged with anything speaks volumes. Had there been no video I think that may not be the case. And now we have an asshole lawyer saying that Mieses is a victim, becasue he wasn't on his bike when he was run over. They should charge him with jaywalking then. That's like saying that if the cops caught you in your car drunk, but you were not moving is ok, because you weren't actually driving at the time.
Geezer
Parsimonious Curmudgeon
The only evidence we have so far that the guy who was injured was actually trying to help a downed rider is the word of some of his fellow miscreants. He was in a coma in the hospital when this was first reported. If you watch the video carefully, it is not clear that the first bike to be hit was actually knocked down. There may not have been any downed cyclist to help at that point. It will be interesting to see how this pans out as more actual information becomes available. My worst fear is that car drivers will learn that it is OK to bump a motorcycle when the cyclist does something that annoys the driver.
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bobg3723
Well-known member
Exactly my fear about road rage. Imagine the fallout when bikers and cagers both get overly defensive and aggro. Needless.
bobg3723
Well-known member
And what's wrong with avoiding a precarious situation if slowing down on your part facilitates that? All I expect of other commuters is to do their part to avoid the other vehicle sharing the public roadway. No, I don't expect it, but what the hell is wrong with common courtesy to promote road safety? Why be a part of the problem? Going back to Lien's actions at the time of the brake check, Lien had AN OBLIGATION to slow down regardless of the idiot MC's mental state. Whether he could have pulled that off is another matter altogether. The bikers participating in the melee should all hang for sure. Mies put himself in a bad situation with a panicked cager even if he is alleged to simply trying to calm things down. I don't care what Mies's past record was because that irrelevant to the events leading up to him getting mowed down. Mies alleged intent to resolve the situation ultimately brought about bad decisions to park your bike in the middle of the street even if you're trying to help if that were the facts and end being part of the problem.
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Maybe I'm just misreading what you posted because of your emphasis, but Lien only had an obligation to slow down if doing so would not being harm to him or his family. Someone already posted what I had been thinking about Lien jamming on his brakes to avoid Cruz. What would have the biker crowd done if two or three bikes had rear ended Lien?? I'm only assuming here, but I think the mob mentality would have been the same.
As also mentioned before, I have to wonder what happened before the camera came on. Just from dealing with crap like this in the past, I think it came on as a result of what was going on with Lien's SUV. OR...The cameraman thought they had their last 4-wheeler slowed down enough to proceed with their stunts. Both scenarios given equal weight, I think the bikers already having some issue with Lien, prior to the camera is a safe bet. Look at the bikes surrounding Liens family. That is NOT normal and would make anyone afraid for their safety. The bikes on the other hand had no reason to freak out. They far outnumbered Lien and are more maneuverable and faster than a Range Rover. All they had to do was pass him or back off.
This bullshit idea we have come up with the last few years that we can't defend ourselves because we may hurt the bad guy is stupid. If the bad guy shows his hand, the intended victim has every right to shut him down before he gets another chance. As pointed out before, if Lien was driving in a manner that led to the initial bump, why did he stop?? He didn't know he was being videoed. Yet...He drives at a reasonable speed and drives straight. The bikers not so much.
None of those idiots will get any sympathy from me. They acted like assholes and paid the price. Everyone of them should be charged. NYPD needs to get off of its collective ass.
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08FJR4ME
-WYNPRO-
Hopefully the 911 calls will come out and we can know more possibly.
bobg3723
Well-known member
It appears that one potential eye-witness among the bikers was reported to have been a cop. That's gonna be interesting. Forget why he was there, but let's focus on whether his testimony can shed some light on the exchange that went on between Lien and the principal parties after he was stopped/restrained. Again, these are douche bag punks and the antagonists should serve long jail sentences for the heinous retribution unleashed upon Lien, but let's get the complete story if for nothing else but the sake of getting to the truth.
Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
You say Lien had AN OBLIGATION to slow down. The video clearly shows that he did slow down. The only real obligation he had was to protect his family. I'd say he tried to do that in the only way he could. Since none of us were there in the SUV with Lien we don't know how we would have reacted or what Lien actually was thinking. I am thinking I would have attempted to run over as many of these cockroaches as I could fit under my wheels.
Regarding the "Past Record" of the thugs involved, it may have had no bearing on what Lien was thinking. Certainly we can judge that he was acting the part of a man with that sort of record and Lien could not have helped but seen what he was dealing with. It most certainly allows us to judge in hindsight. I judge him very deserving of a life spent in a wheelchair and a diaper. It is a fact that he was no benefit to society for the first part of his life, he may as well continue as a parasite. At least he will be a harmless parasite now.
I fail to see how anyone has an obligation to slow down and let these criminals play in the road. What you advocate equals cowardice. It may work for you, I'd rather be remembered as a brave jackass than a coward.
