FJRF011: Fast Starter Syndrome

[DiggerDr.]

I agree with you. I could be way off base but I am wondering if the fuel mapping controlled by the ECU and the cold high idle offset controlled by the coolant heated wax motor somehow don't agree if the bike is not warmed up completely before shutting off. After all, they are designed to be started and ridden, not shut off. An ECU controlled idle air control might be a better set-up.

 

[HotRodZilla]

I would say yes, as that has never happened in any of my fuel injected cars. The first time these guys mentioned a wax-motor, I thought they were screwing with me.

 

[DiggerDr.]

I have had four letter words for wax motors before. Just never on a motorcycle. There is another thread on here somewhere talking about the possibility of a wax motor screwing with a hot engine at take off from stop. Still researching....

 

[mcatrophy]

The Gen 3 doesn't have the wax motor, it uses its ECU to control cold idle

But it is still prone to flooding after a cold engine start/stop. On the occasion I was stupid enough to do this tried this out for the collective, it started a little more easily than on my Gen 2.

 

[DiggerDr.]

Well, that throws a wrench into my gears. Thanks anyway. On to my second set of questions. After work......

 

[Donal]

I thought I had a problem with my battery tender (optimate) and while trying to eliminate possibilities I carried a series of starts/shut downs (to drain the battery). The charger anomaly went away, but.......

Next time I went to use the bike it 'coughed' once and then went into the fast starter routine.

I tried about 8 times with the throttle wide open but no luck.

So, rather than flog the battery/starter with continued WFO starts, I lifted the tank and disconnected the fuel pump.

On the next crank it fired almost straight away and then died away as the fuel stored in the rail depleted.

I then reconnected the pump and gave a WFO crank and it started.

 

[Geezer]

I thought I had a problem with my battery tender (optimate) and while trying to eliminate possibilities I carried a series of starts/shut downs (to drain the battery). The charger anomaly went away, but.......
Next time I went to use the bike it 'coughed' once and then went into the fast starter routine.

I tried about 8 times with the throttle wide open but no luck.

So, rather than flog the battery/starter with continued WFO starts, I lifted the tank and disconnected the fuel pump.

On the next crank it fired almost straight away and then died away as the fuel stored in the rail depleted.

I then reconnected the pump and gave a WFO crank and it started.

That supports my theory that the FJR tends to flood when we start it and don't allow it to run long enough for the idle to drop to normal RPMs. The high idle would include a rich mixture to act like what a choke does on a carbureted engine. Shutting down during that rich period leaves too much fuel in the combustion chamber and running the starter with the throttle wide open helps flush that fuel out.

Disconnecting the fuel pump like you did solves the problem without excess wear on the battery and starter, so thank you for that option.

 

[FJR-Pilot]

I know it's an old thread but I might as well chime to thank you folks for helping me get my 2014 Gen 3 running, and to let the world know that Gen 3's are doing this too

Background: Did a 5,000 mile trip out west about 4 weeks ago. No trouble entire trip. The day after I got home I hosed her down & blow dried her hair real nice like. Rode it around it around the neighborhood for about 2 minute afterwards and parked her in the garage. Took her out today to ride and it almost started and I went: "hmmmm". Then the next try it just spun and spun and no hope for fire. Put it on battery tender thinking it must be below 12VDC thus preventing electronic ignition or Fuel Injectors from working normally ... or something like that. So I go inside and read what is said here (WOT until she cranks). Go back outside after fully charged and it took about 30 to 45 seconds of cranking with WOT but she started up! Took it for a good 30 minute ride. All's good. Thanks!

 

[darkclearsky]

.. and another story.

2015 Gen 3 FJR with only 4K miles. I had this exact same issue and came across this thread.

After trying to start it intermittently over a weekend I was starting to stress about the tow down to the dealer... Got a battery charger, let it sit a day - took about 20 seconds of straight wide open throttle (WOT) cranking then it came back to life (huge sigh of relief). Lots of smoke and sputtering but it smoothed back out and all is sane again.

-Pete

 

[rdg20]

A couple of weeks ago I took my 2010 FJR out for a ride. It had the original battery in it which was now almost 8 years old. It turned over a little slow when cold so I decided to order a new battery to get ready for the coming season. I ordered the OEM battery from Partzilla since I had such good luck with the original. I swapped out the battery - no problems. I started the bike and let it warm up in the garage, but since it was raining I shut the bike down and parked it. I put the battery on the Battery Tender. A couple of days later the rain stopped and it warmed up so I decided to go for a ride. The bike would not start! The starter seemed to turn over faster than normal - but the battery was new so maybe that was to be expected. It would hit now and then, but not start. There was the strong smell of gas. I finally gave up, parked the bike and hooked up the Battery Tender. The next day I tried again with the same result. I was about to make arrangements to take it to the shop today, but decided to try one more time and see if it would start. I held the throttle 1/3 to 1/2 open and ran the starter longer than I really wanted to and it started and died. I tried again and it started just like it always had! I went for a short ride and it seems normal. I started it a dozen or more times with no problems. I have no idea what caused the problem bit I'm going to try and get some local miles in to get my confidence that it will start reliably. I'd hate to get stuck miles from home! I don't see how the battery could cause this.

 

[escapefjrtist]

<snip>I don't see how the battery could cause this.

It didn't. You did by starting up the bike and not letting it run long enough to burn all the raw gas out of it.

Second attempt just made it worse.

--G

 

[2wheels4fun]

Had this problem on 2014 ES with 26,500 miles. After reading all the pages, I think I caused my problem.

1) Sat for 1.5 weeks in nights that got down to 5F and stayed below 32F during the day.

2) I knew I was going to take the bike to work Monday, so I started it Sunday to confirm it would start since cold weather, original battery, forgot to put it on trickle charger. Started right up like normal. Here is my mistake, I let it run for about 30 seconds and shut it off.

3) Monday morning wouldn't start. Gave up, took xt225 to work

4) Came home, still would not start. Hooked up portable battery jumper to it and started cracking for 30 seconds, pause for min, crank again. Sometimes turned key off, sometimes did not.

5) Finally glimpse of hope it appear to fire one cylinder. Was also playing with throttle part open, 1/2 open, wot at different times.

6) Finally started, missed a lot, got to 4,000 rpms. Thought everything was fine, let go of throttle, stalled. Then would not start again. Same problem.

7) Played with the throttle at different places, missed a lot, finally got it started. Let it run at 4,000 rpm for about 1 min. Everything was normal again.

8) Took it out for 20 mile ride and been fine ever since.

 

[rdg20]

<snip>I don't see how the battery could cause this.

It didn't. You did by starting up the bike and not letting it run long enough to burn all the raw gas out of it.

Second attempt just made it worse.

--G

i don't think that's the problem. After changing the battery I started the bike and let it run while I put away my tools. It was up to normal operating temperature when I shut it off.

 

[XWinger]

Strange problem. Funny thing is my FJR never did it. If i ran it for a short time it would run a little rough next startup but clear right out. I had a 1994 Saturn SL2 sedan that did the exact same thing if you started it just to move it the next day it cranked over as if the plugs were removed. Had to hold petal to floor "clear flood mode" andd crank away. Replaced at least 3 starters in that car in the 250k that i drove it

 

[HotRodZilla]

I don't see how the battery could cause this.

It didn't. You did by starting up the bike and not letting it run long enough to burn all the raw gas out of it.

Second attempt just made it worse.

--G

i don't think that's the problem. After changing the battery I started the bike and let it run while I put away my tools. It was up to normal operating temperature when I shut it off.

I guarantee you, it took less time to put away your tools than you thought. Most places, it's cold outside, even if only nominally colder than normal. Bike runs rich longer. You shut it off and it flooded. Nothing to do with your new battery. Read this entire thread. With this and all the others out there that are related, we've seen this over a hundred times. Some of us have experienced it more than once. Escapefjrtist is absolutely correct.

 

[mech 1 twa]

Honda cars had the same problems. Flooded. Going back 80-90's mostly. Back it out of garage forget something shut it off and then no start. Plugs wet.

I've seen many towed for this problem. Mostly due to very worn plugs but not always.

 

[twinfan]

This just happened for the second time on my 06. It could have been avoided, as I changed the oil a couple weeks back and ran the engine for a minute to check for leaks. Then, last weekend, no go. It took 7 or 8 long cranking sessions spread over two days to finally fire. I left plenty of time in between for the starter motor to cool and the battery to recharge.

 

[Fred W]

Just reread this thread as a friend just had the problem and I directed him to it.

This is an old thread, but the problem still persists and we never reached a solid conclusion as to the root causes other than it seems to be a flooded condition.

There is one fairly common symptom reported by many people that may be significant: many say that the engine sounds like it is turning over normally at first, but then something changes and the compression is lost. That goes against the leaky injector theory, and instead seems like the cold start injection is what is rinsing the oil off the cylinder walls causing loss of compression and also resulting in flooding. Why the cold start injection would randomly be too heavy is the root question here.

In retrospect, there may actually be two separate root causes that result in a similar problem. One being that the bike was started and stopped cold the prior time it was run, leaving wet cylinders, but in that case you would expect low compression from the get-go. The second situation would be the cases where it starts out spinning normally, chuffs once and goes into fast stater syndrome.

A few report squirting some oil in the cylinder gets the bike going again. It is interesting that multiple people have found that disconnecting the fuel pump and attempting a start clears the flooded condition. Might be good to install a fuel pump cutoff switch to be able to do that without lifting the tank.

 

[RossKean]

I agree that it might be a suitable fix if this was a persistant problem. On my '07, I experienced it maybe 2 or 3 times. Once (so far) on my 2011. Total of 200,000 miles. Perhaps others run into this a lot more frequently? If so, is it a function of the specific bike, their habits, or storage conditions? On two occasions, for me, it happened after a longer layoff (winter, once for each bike) although I was careful to run it up to full operating temperature before shutdown.

Edit: Some people have not been able to get started, even with WFO. Going at it with a freshly charged battery the next day, they sometimes get a pretty much normal start. Does the excess fuel (if that is the cause) drain away or is something else happening? A fully charged battery is an enormous help, no matter what.

 

[grommet]

Glad I found this thread.  Thanks for collecting the info and labeling it, making it easy to find, etc. 

'05, 75k miles.

I did a long trip earlier this summer without any incident.  After getting home, I commuted a few times on it.  Then it sat for a couple weeks, I started it once briefly, shut off cold, then let it sit for a couple more weeks.  Tried to start yesterday, got one woof then the fast starter.  I will try the fuel pump trick, then a bit of oil or sea foam in the cylinders if that doesn't work.

FYI I had the same thing on my Gen 1 FZ1.  Little different situation - 1100 mile, 1-day ride in cold weather, then shut down and left to sit for 2 weeks.  On startup, fast starter and very low compression.  Some sea foam in the cylinders for a couple days loosened up the rings and it started and ran fine after that with no further issues.  To my knowledge only a couple of other FZ1s ever had this happen, so it was not nearly as common as it appears to be here.