Police Chase/Stop - What were they thinking?

[cougar8000]

True, but the first officer had the plates on camera. It was not a violent crime, what is wrong with just stoping by his residents and issuing a bunch of tickets? AS they say in football "Unnecessary roughness." Punishment did not fit the crime in this case.

 

[ponyfool]

True, but the first officer had the plates on camera. It was not a violent crime, what is wrong with just stoping by his residents and issuing a bunch of tickets? AS they say in football "Unnecessary roughness." Punishment did not fit the crime in this case.

Because, as a law abiding citizen, you assume the registered owner IS the driver/rider. When it comes to pursuits, that is rarely the case.

I would also argue that once a person decides to flee, he is a potentially violent offender because he no longer cares about anyone's outcome but his own. Finally, you are right, the punishment did not fit the crime. But, that would also be the case if he crashed on his own. Clearly, as I mentioned before, I don't believe the officer's actions could be construed as appropriate unless there were extenuating circumstances we aren't aware of.

 

[El Gordo]

The post wasn't made to put Ponyfool 'under the microscope'. As a matter of fact, I very much respect his attitude, professionalism and intelligence demonstrated in all of his posts.

I do wonder if the quality of our police forces is deteriorating. That there are more officers that are not of the calibre that we would like and that it is getting harder for a good officer to maintain high standards of professionalism. Probably many of you saw the news of the Polish fellow that died after being tasered at the Vancouver airport. After 26 seconds of 4 officers coming on the scene, they tasered him. Then gave him no medical assistance until the EMTs got there 12 minutes later and wouldn't at 1st remove the handcuffs so the EMTs could effectively perform CPR. Are incidents to well covered by the media now a days or are there too many incidents happening. It does scare the hell out of me that a police officer might use his car as a weapon against me when I'm on a motorcycle as the reactions seem to be getting faster and less thought out?

The fellow running from the police (especially riding two up) deserves to pay large, he was a total asshat. However it was no excuse for the action taken by the police officer that could have easily killed both the driver and passenger. The attached article even questioned the validity of lighting them up (again, I don't condone running) so they were not chasing someone known to be dangerous.

 

[ponyfool]

I do wonder if the quality of our police forces is deteriorating. That there are more officers that are not of the calibre that we would like and that it is getting harder for a good officer to maintain high standards of professionalism.

I often wonder about that myself. When I took the test to get hired in Norfolk, VA 19 years ago, I was one of 2700 that applied that year with 82 getting hired if I remember correctly. When I came out to the Pacific NW, I was in the Oregon Convention Center with 3100 other applicants, and was one of 60 that got hired.

This year, we've had 240 people apply. We need to hire 150. Therein lies the crux of your question IMO.

There are many factors creating this. The media helps (hurts). Think about it, who wants to be a cop today with the negative publicity the profession is getting? Even when officers do exactly what they're trained to do, the media jumps on the negative result rather than the cause. "Officer shoots and kills motorist" is the typical headline when a wanted felon stopped for running a red light draws a gun and tries to shoot the officer.

Plus, the options available to people coming out of college (we still require college to get employed) are plentiful. Let's see, do I want a $60k/year job as a cop that's hated by the media but respected by the silent majority that's too afraid to speak up in support, or the $85k/year job at Intel or Nike where my personal life isn't on the front page of every paper, internet forum and YouTube web site when I do my job properly but happens to have a bad result?

Additionally, even though this is stereotyping, but GenX and younger kids coming into police work don't see it as a career, but rather a job. Ask an academy full of officers today how many expect to retire from the job, and you're likely to get less than 25%. That alone scares the bejeebers out of me.

There are countless other reasons for the lack of interest in police work, but it does beg the question you ask, and I'm not sure anyone's actually asking it when it comes to recruiting, etc.

 

[Bounce]

I often wonder about that myself. When I took the test to get hired in Norfolk, VA 19 years ago, I was one of 2700 that applied that year with 82 getting hired if I remember correctly. When I came out to the Pacific NW, I was in the Oregon Convention Center with 3100 other applicants, and was one of 60 that got hired.
This year, we've had 240 people apply. We need to hire 150. Therein lies the crux of your question IMO.

Think about it, who wants to be a cop today with the negative publicity the profession is getting?

19 years ago does NOT equal the mid 1950's. and, best as i can tell from personal observations, that was about the last time the media portrayed cops as anything positive. even then NYC and Chicago cops were always "on the take". it just didn't take hold for the perception of the rest of the country until the late 60's.

As for those entering "the business" and seeing it as "anything more than a job", i had a friend (who was a local cop) say those exact words to me in the late 70's. it's all perspective. no matter where you are, the young whipper snappers are always slackers. you were slackers in the eyes of your seniors and your slackers will see their slackers as such when they are grizzled and grey.

 

[ponyfool]

no matter where you are, the young whipper snappers are always slackers. you were slackers in the eyes of your seniors and your slackers will see their slackers as such when they are grizzled and grey.

Yea, but then, I was one of the young ones freakin' out the old farts. Now I'm one of the old farts, so it's of course different!!!

But there is something happening in that it doesn't have the draw it used to. Dunno what it is, but when the application pool drops by more than 90%, there's a problem!

 

[skuehl]

True, but the first officer had the plates on camera. It was not a violent crime, what is wrong with just stoping by his residents and issuing a bunch of tickets? AS they say in football "Unnecessary roughness." Punishment did not fit the crime in this case.

Well said.

And about the comment about tax dollars. I for one, dont want my tax dollars to go to someone who impales any vehicle for a traffic stop. Let him go. big deal. He gets away. Wow. Who cares. The cop impales his ass. This is a big deal and not cool. Especially for the passenger.

And by the way. Those guys were hauling ass through those stops signs. Hate to live in that city. I have seen a LOT of cops here in SoCal and rarely see them blow stop signs like that. Maybe a bank robery but not a traffic stop.

 

[madmike2]

I know this "discussion" is beginning it's slow spiral of death, but.....

True, but the first officer had the plates on camera. It was not a violent crime, what is wrong with just stoping by his residents and issuing a bunch of tickets? AS they say in football "Unnecessary roughness." Punishment did not fit the crime in this case.

Okaaaayyyyyy. What if the bike was being ridden by a thief and not the owner? Then the police have to answer for not pulling over a stolen vehicle. Why didn't the rider just obey thelaw and pull over rather than indicating there was something more involved by running?

Well said.
And about the comment about tax dollars. I for one, dont want my tax dollars to go to someone who impales any vehicle for a traffic stop. Let him go. big deal. He gets away. Wow. Who cares. The cop impales his ass. This is a big deal and not cool. Especially for the passenger.

So, by this theory, if a rider speeding and having fun on a sports bike T-bones your car and kills or maims your wife or children you're okay with that. Afterall, the police shouldn't chase them and arrest them...no harm/no foul, who cares? Since there's little danger of the police actually intervening in a simple speeding motorcycle case, why bother to slow down and obey the speed laws at any time?Even better if it is a stolen motorcycle because the police aren't going to chase it.

And by the way. Those guys were hauling ass through those stops signs. Hate to live in that city. I have seen a LOT of cops here in SoCal and rarely see them blow stop signs like that. Maybe a bank robery but not a traffic stop.

It could be that the cops in L.A. deal with a different traffic density than the Texas cops shown in the video.

 

[wfooshee]

Nobody has anything to say, speculation-wise, about the silence in the beginning of each video?

While sitting at the light, what was the radio traffic? Was he running the plate because he was bored, or had he seen something before that light that raised suspicion. There's no audio until the lights come on and the bike runs, and as far as we know from the video, there's no reason to make a stop. (I'm not saying there wasn't, I'm asking why that isn't part of the release.)

Likewise, we get nothing of the second car's radio traffic, which probably included a "wanted for" statement explaining the pursuit.

Nevertheless, his idea to block the lane was really really dumb.

 

[FJR_pig]

I have to admire Scott's willingness to defend and educate every time a post pops up that deals with police professionalism. I can't do it anymore. It's exhausting. Seems like we have one a week around here. Sigh...

I need to find some dirt on dentists...that'll provide a good distraction...

 

[wfooshee]

To add to my previous, I saw nothing in the vids that makes scum of either of the officers except the decision to try to block the lane. Would he have done that for a car coming along at 60+? Probably not. Yet like many drivers, his perception may have been that "it's just a bike."

I'm sure he knew the speed; there's a speed query in the first vid. Also, I don't think he "swerved into the motorcycle." He realized his mistake in trying to cover the opposing lane and was trying to move back to his right, out of the way. Just really really bad timing, after bad judgment getting there in the first place.

That's how I see it.

As for the vids casting doubt on the charge of running a red light, he may well have run one before the vid started. Say he was approaching an intersection as cross traffic to the cop, who was sitting at his light, and the bike's light changed, he squeezed too much yellow time out of it. The cop turns and follows, runs the plate, lights him up, bike runs. So far, nothing out of the ordinary, and completely plausible.

Now that I look at it that way, I'm wondering where the muted audio came from. Was it that way when released by the city, or did the TV station mute it because it conflicted with their "sensational" story?

Now THAT would be a reason for heads to roll!

 

[germany]

I need to find some dirt on dentists...that'll provide a good distraction...

Here you go...Clicky

 

[cougar8000]

I know this "discussion" is beginning it's slow spiral of death, but.....

True, but the first officer had the plates on camera. It was not a violent crime, what is wrong with just stoping by his residents and issuing a bunch of tickets? AS they say in football "Unnecessary roughness." Punishment did not fit the crime in this case.

Okaaaayyyyyy. What if the bike was being ridden by a thief and not the owner? Then the police have to answer for not pulling over a stolen vehicle. Why didn't the rider just obey thelaw and pull over rather than indicating there was something more involved by running?

Still, unless we leave in the middle of arabia, stealing does not get punished by slicing the offenders hand. Two wrongs do not make it right.

 

[ponyfool]

Still, unless we leave in the middle of arabia, stealing does not get punished by slicing the offenders hand. Two wrongs do not make it right.

No, you are absolutely right, two wrongs don't make a right. But that doesn't mean that someone shouldn't intervene when someone does a wrong. I mean, the "punishment does not fit the crime" statement could be extrapolated to pretty much ANYTHING with a negative ending.

Guy goes into a store to a piece of gum, someone goes to stop him, chases him across the street, and falls into traffic, dying. The ending sure as hell doesn't fit the final punishment, but the person who made the decision to steal also made the decision to run. Mistakes happen in circumstances like this, and while those mistakes can and should be addressed, the ultimate blame in the end is the person who CHOSE to break the law.

 

[Ignacio]

As we drift off far away from the purpose of this forum.

What does this all have to do with FJRs?

Not much by my estimation.

....food for thought. :glare:

 

[cougar8000]

I totally agree with your statement about an ultimate blame on the person that is committing the crime, but falling down and cracking ones head open is an accident, pulling in to the path of a motorcyclist is another story. Second officer should have known that his actions will cause unnecessary bodily injury.

What I do not understand is why we still have police chases for a non violent offenses?! They bring nothing else but destruction. I am not saying this so people will feel that if they run they can get away. It is just lots of times when chase takes place by-standers get hurt, officers get hurt, nobody wins. Both rider and a first squad were going through the stop signs like there is no tomorrow. It was clear that he would never catch up. Why continue?

yes, public outcry will be brutal for police to let those schmucks get a way with it all the time, but I think it will be even worse once someone gets hurt. And there is nothing that can change public outlook on this. People wants to see chase and criminal behind bars, but no one has a stomach to deal with consequences.

BTW. I do appreciate your openness about your profession.

 

[cougar8000]

As we drift off far away from the purpose of this forum.
What does this all have to do with FJRs?

Not much by my estimation.

....food for thought. :glare:

It does not, but it makes an interesting conversation. I rather talk about this then weather man telling me it will be sunny and it turns out other wise

 

[Fred W]

I don't believe the rider ran a red light before the tape started. If he had, the original cop would have just lit him up and pulled him over at the left turn. So, for some reason that cop doesn't want to say the real reason he decided to pull him over. Why?

Nobody knows why the guy ran. He was (is?) stupid. Whatever happened to him after that point is of his own doing.

The 2nd cop lied about trying to avoid the bike. He clearly set a road block and then when it appeared it wasn't going to work he rammed the bike intentionally. I don't even care about that. The rider brought it on by running. For all these cops knew, he could have just committed some serious crime. The guy was running from them. That alone is apparently a felony.

So the only germane, unanswered question in my mind is: Why did the cops lie? If they had merely stated the truth this would have just been another story of a stupid squid.

Oh, and to bring this on forum topic, I do not believe any FJR riders would ever be so stupid to run from a cop unless they HAD just committed murder or something... in which case running would make perfect sense.

 

[ponyfool]

So the only germane, unanswered question in my mind is: Why did the cops lie?

OMG! Give me a freakin' break! You actually think you have enough information to prove the cops lied in this case?? You ever heard of perceptual differences?

He clearly made a mistake, and he answered with what he thought he was doing. You don't have to agree, but I'll bet you he believes it.

 

[Calimus]

I don't care why the cop lit him up in the first place. We've all been pulled before for one reason or another. The fact he ran makes him an instant asshat in my book and even more so for doing it with a passenger who didn't get a choice.

I'm not happy that the second cruiser pulled in front of the bike. They certainly don't seem to do that with a car thats on-coming. However, I don't feel bad for the rider what so ever. he could have bit it just as hard by hitting some innocent car driver that happened to cross his path. I have sympathy for the passenger on the bike. There's a good chance she hardly knew what the deal was and was just hanging on for dear life. At that point it's almost like a hostage situation maybe?

I have mixed feelings about pursuits that reach high speed. On one hand, I feel that those that cause high speed pursuits need to get their ass kicked. But on the other hand, the safety and the public and the officeres themselves really needs to be taken into account. It's a tough line and I feel for those that have to make those decisions on wether to chase or not. Especially in today's sue happy world.

Oh, as for FJR relevance, I don't see any. However, it's bike related so the forum area seems to fit. So far the discussion seems very civil and actually very educational with Ponyfools posts. Not trying to step on toes, but to me everyone is playing nice and the topic appears to be in the right catagory.