Sometimes a Ticker doesn't Tick

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Just so I'm clear on this, Alan, are you saying that Ivan's questions about the explanation for this event were not completely off the wall?
I'm pleased to see this question! I'm not saying anyone is wrong, in error, or is without a clue. I hope to offer facts, information and my interpretations based on how I understand what I read from the previous posts. I have offered a scenario as I see it and solicit dialog back. Note the "Serve. Volley?" end to my post. Good dialog is a two way street, I have offered my view and welcome ongoing discussions from the person/people that are actually hands-on in this discussion. If there is to be a winner in this discussion it should be all the readers of this Forum. It is a wise Forum member that is an educated member. All I hope to do is bring accurate facts and information to the topic. The take-away from this is up to the persons that follows the thread. It's a pretty good bet that subsequent information will expand our understanding of the hard technical facts and the softer dealer/customer service relationship.

What kind of a soft namby-pamby sorry ass disclaimer was that you useless jack-wagon?
I am intrigued by the Ring Free use. Never heard of it and really did not understand the importance of using such a product. It has me wondering if I should use it (or Techron or Seafoam) in the FJR (and my other vehicles). I do steer away from teh cheapest gas usually.

 
Alan, in your emphasis of the apparent across the board loss of compression lies a probably important diagnostic issue. IIRC, it was dcarver's '06 that had a dramatic compression loss in one cylinder due to a chunk of carbon interfering with the seating of one valve (intake IIRC). Seems to me that it occurred in Death Valley and the bike was seriously short on power until he got the problem diagnosed and fixed a week or so later. So, I gotta agree with you -- makes sense that carbon interfering between valve and seat is highly unlikely to yield an across the board loss of compression, especially a loss of roughly the same values in each cylinder.

So, could Nightshine's bike have suffered a carbon caused ring problem at the same time that he had other valve guide issues? Or is it something else that might be related to exhaust valve guide erosion?

I'd be interested in your thoughts on valve piston interference with the cam shaft off by one tooth. Isn't that what happened with the cam chain jumping the sprocket on your or Howie's or Patriot's bike? (Seems that at least one was from putting it together on the wrong marks, but the CCT caused crashes jumped how far?) Or was it further mistimed than one tooth to cause the valve crashes?

I don't doubt that some of Ivans's observations were valid concerns. Unless I hear a better explanation of what MIGHT have occurred to cause the excessive leakdown though, I still think there's a couple problems with his conclusion that the shop crashed the valves and used a ticker fix ruse as a cover for rebuilding the top end after that damage. But you've been through a valve crash with this engine, what say you on that?

EDIT to add: It's worth rereading the first three posts by Nightshine (the OP) and Zac's post.

 

Nightshine specifically says that he had observed no performance degradation between this service (December) and the last one (March) which he implies was the only other time he'd made the trek to R.Y. for service. He also does not say that it was Roseville Yamaha that did his first (of two) valve lash checks and it appears that, due to mileage intervals, it was NOT R.Y. who did the first valve lash check scheduled fro 24 K. (This would remove the possibility of R.Y. having mistimed the camshafts before the bike was brought in this December).

 

Nightshine also says that the valves were not seating properly in part due to the valve guide wear, and in his second post relates that carbon deposits were interfering with the valve seating AND rings.

 

Zac then clarifies that in his own bike (O'vale's) and in Nightshine's, the "ovaled" wear of the exhaust valve guides contributed to carbon build-up between the valves and seats that had the valves improperly seating.

Noting this last part, and the issue of coincident carbon/piston ring sticking problems, might go some ways to addressing why excessive leakdown was observed in each cylinder.

 
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I'm pleased to see this question! I'm not saying anyone is wrong, in error, or is without a clue. I hope to offer facts, information and my interpretations based on how I understand what I read from the previous posts. I have offered a scenario as I see it and solicit dialog back.
There you go! The message often is intertwined in style and delivery. I think Ivan had some kernels of truth and a few interesting observations in his posts......but his signal to noise ratio was all out of whack. So much noise, that it probably contributed to him losing the privilege of being here....even if everything he said was right or not.

Ionbeam, however, is a Master at Signal and a great example for all of us.

Ionbeam talk pretty! :clapping:

 
Hey, when it rains it pours.

But I'd rather have some bad artificial reputation than have to own the valves in those photos. HOLY CRAP!!

..and I'm sure they've considered tossing me more than once. :D
You and me both brudder...

(yeah I quoted from the deleted. Just cause I'm that way)

 
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hmmmm, been following this thread with great interest and one thing I do not see in any of the posts.

When my '05 FJR was diagnosed/fixed as a ticker one of the measurements that was done first was a valve guide clearance check.

Factory spec is .001 inch and my #2 cylinder exhaust valve had .0095 and the ticking sound was quite audible at idle.

During the repair, the tech showed me the worn guide and valve - I could feel the slop and make it "clack" in my hands due to the excess wear.

I see no mention of the actual measured amount of wear on the FJR being discussed - did I miss that somewhere?

And count me in as one of those skeptics who say that a "30 percent across the board" compression decrease was not noticeable.

Hell, I noticed the difference and it was only on one cylinder. The restored "crisp" sound and performance of the engine after the fix was VERY noticeable.

If a motor has lost that much compression due to worn valve guides it WILL be noticeable - and a noisy mutha-fooker at that if the valve guides are worn enough to cause it.

There has to be more to this repair than what we have been told on this thread.

 
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FWIW re: loss of power in Nightshine's bike. I rode a little less than 2,000 of my 4,000+ miles over 5 days before and after WCR on Vancouver Island in September with Nightshine, between his last two services. I did not observe a weak motorcycle unable to catch up quickly like we're all used to on this platform, but I was leading most of the time and didn't ride his bike.

Also FWIW, I put almost 5,000 miles on my bike during a 2 week trip to and from CFR in June 2009 between having the tick diagnosed and getting it repaired. Without timing it in a 1/4 mile, I couldn't tell that a tick afflicted motor is substantially impaired in performance, at least not early in its display of symptoms, but then, upon my asking, I was told that I didn't have carbon deposits in my engine at that time either. I've heard the same thing from nearly everyone else who has had a ticker and had it repaired. The noise it makes is the thing that makes it noticeable at that stage.

So, thinking out loud: any chance that worn (ovaled) valve guides together with cheap gasoline that produces carbon deposits (the apparent compression loss performance gremlin here) might account for the difference in performance between some tickers and others? (No -- I can't account for Nightshine's failure to notice a performance difference with such deposits and an apparent loss of compression.)

 
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Alan, in your emphasis of the apparent across the board loss of compression lies a probably important diagnostic issue. IIRC, it was dcarver's '06 that had a dramatic compression loss in one cylinder due to a chunk of carbon interfering with the seating of one valve (intake IIRC). Seems to me that it occurred in Death Valley and the bike was seriously short on power until he got the problem diagnosed and fixed a week or so later. So, I gotta agree with you -- makes sense that carbon interfering between valve and seat is highly unlikely to yield an across the board loss of compression, especially a loss of roughly the same values in each cylinder.
Actually, I was pretty damn happy, IIRC,with the bike's performance. I was surprised beyond belief it had a problem. Off to search for the original post...

 
Wow. Go away for a few days and all kinds of things happen! :D

I don't know what more I might add that hasn't already been said in one way or another. But to (maybe) help sum up a few details:

  1. As exiskibum correctly deduced, Roseville Yamaha did not perform the first valve lash check. That was done by my local dealer at around the scheduled interval.
     
  2. I really hadn't noticed any performance degradation in my (usually sedate) riding style. Really. This may just be because the bike has more than enough power on tap for any riding I typically do on the street, whether solo, two-up, or towing a trailer. And again, any performance loss was perhaps just too insidious for me to compare, as it may have been accumulating over a span of years. I should be getting the bike back next week. :yahoo: I'll let you folks know of any change in the character of the bike's performance.
     
  3. Ticking? What ticking? Eh? My hearing isn't what it once was, and I also use 30db custom ear plugs while riding. :) Last March, Zak heard the bike idle and noticed only the usual mechanical noises. I haven't noticed any sound changes between March and December.
     
  4. The vast majority of the time, I use Chevron or Shell regular gasoline in the bike.
     
  5. I'm not terribly mechanically inclined, so when Zak related to me leak down test results of "20% to 30% across the board", I was happy that he had quantitative data supporting his investigations. It is my understanding that this was on the exhaust side and rings. He also found oil in the exhaust headers indicative of exhaust value sealing issues.
     
  6. I have no doubt that additional objective tests and measurements could have been done to further corroborate Zak's diagnosis, many of which you all have suggested. If this was an FJR problem that was unfamiliar to him, no doubt he would have made them. I surmise (correctly or not) that what he saw on teardown supported his conjecture and he reasonably felt that no further investigation was necessary.
     
  7. Ionbeam: You bring up a good point. I'd don't know whether the local dealer had the cam chain off during the initial valve check. Would that be a normal part of that procedure? I remember having a cam chain replaced years ago on an '76 Celica, and the dealer installed it "one tooth off", which caused all kinds of carbon deposit issues, and subsequently very noticeable performance problems in just a few thousand miles.

In any event, I'm pleased this thread appears to have been educational (on various levels). I'm learning lots from the contributions. And you just don't know where the discussion is gonna go. Aside from the usually FJR bantering, it got Yamaha involved (Zak), and it even served as an inadvertent "honey trap" for a newbie to the entertainment of all concerned.

Such are the services we provide for each other, so often on an unconscious level. ;)

Happy New Year, everyone!

 
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Just thought I'd throw in a recommendation for where to buy Ring Free if anyone is shopping after reading this thread. Spent some time in Google and found www.grandprixmotorsports.com has the 32oz Ring Free bottles for $34.95 and FREE shipping. It's a good price by itself, but the free shipping makes it a steal.

 
Usage rate is 1 oz per 10 gallons of fuel. 32 oz is good for 320 gallons, or at a conservative 40mpg it is good for 12,800 miles.

 
Ah, that e'splains the price. That stuff goes a long way!! Thanks.

[edit] I just googled on this stuff and discovered something confusing. It appears that Yamaha Marine sells the same juice in 3.2 oz bottles for $1.95, which translates to only 19.50 per quart. What gives?

[edit edit] Must be old price data or something, but those 3.2oz bottles they say treats 5 gallons? :unsure:

 
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There is also a one-time shock treatment dosage of 2 oz per gallon of fuel. Which requires you to change the oil and oil filter afterwards. I believe this is if you suspect some significant crud build-up in your engine or if you have never used a fuel system cleaner before on your engine.

The 1 oz per 10 gallons is for continuous use - which is what I am planning to use it for (or as faithfully as I can manage to use it).

 
Found this on thehulltruth.com

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Sheesh am I the only one busy this time of year??? You guys need to get out and get some sun!

Leak down is done during valve inspections at my shop, in this case the readings were excessive 20-30% on the exhaust side due to carbon chunks holding the exhaust valves open. The readings would vary as the carbon moves but hung around 20-25%.

No his intake valves werent compromised they are being reused.

The worn guides were found only after pulling the head, cleaning the gunk and doing standard measurements so we changed them and the exhaust valves. There were ovaled I dont have the measurement in front of me but they werent round.

Yes his cams were timed perfectly and valve clearances were spot on as that is the first thing done on any engine when the valve cover comes off....otherwise you bend valves 25 times like the other guy.

Do the worn guides directly correlate to the carbon? I cant be 100% sure. But I can say that more times than not when doing this guide repair there is excessive carbon buildup to some degree so Id say it probably aids in making normal buildup worse.

Either way it aint right so fix it.

Go riding boys the sun is out..(here in Cali at least)

 
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