Two fails in one

[RichDoyle]

On two occasions in the last week on my '13 I've had two simultaneous, temporary anomalies I need to track down. Symptoms:

Driving along and cruise control won't engage, blinking at me. Ok, it's a short ride, I'll look into it. I get where I'm going and stop the bike with the kill switch (important step here). Code 90 appears. Ah ha!, says I - a problem with a brake light switch. I look at the rear and the brake lights are stuck on. Tap the foot pedal a few times - no change. Squeeze the front brake lever a few times (takes more than one) and lights go out. Code stays but clears when the bike is turned off and back on.

So it's likely a problem in the front brake switch. The next step is to figure out where the problem really is. There's a fault-check procedure in the manual. But it starts out by checking connectors hidden in the bowels of the bike. It doesn't seem to be a brake lever travel issue, but it's hard to tell. The microswitch activation is almost impossible to feel through the lever and can only be heard in a really quiet environment. It also happens in the very last smidgeon of lever release. I'm inclined to think the switch pushrod itself is sticking somehow, since it is intermittent and has taken a year to show up. The return force produced on the hand levers is solely from springs in the master cylinders and might not be enough to overcome a bit of stickiness in the switch activation rod.

Of course, the bike is under warranty, but it's really a hassle and time sink to take it in for what I think is a minor problem. At least until I know differently. So I'll try cleaning up that pushrod and see what happens. Levers are already properly lubed, by the way.

 

[majicmaker]

A gummed up micro switch would be my first guess. Try squirting some cleaner and see what happens. If you say it's been properly lubed, then you need to go further. Good luck!

 

[RichDoyle]

The levers have been lubed. But I agree the switch (not specified to be lubed) is likely the culprit.

 

[CAJW]

A gummed up micro switch would be my first guess. Try squirting some cleaner and see what happens. If you say it's been properly lubed, then you need to go further. Good luck!

This would be my first action. My Gen I after about 7 years had the clutch Micro Switch gum up and caused an "In gear" no start, but some contact cleaner fixed it. I'm a little surprised that your bike being so new would crud up so soon, but again, you are living in the same general vicinity as the Pieman so maybe some Lemon meringue got slung in there.

 

[FJRay]

A gummed up micro switch would be my first guess. Try squirting some cleaner and see what happens. If you say it's been properly lubed, then you need to go further. Good luck!

This would be my first action. My Gen I after about 7 years had the clutch Micro Switch gum up and caused an "In gear" no start, but some contact cleaner fixed it. I'm a little surprised that your bike being so new would crud up so soon, but again, you are living in the same general vicinity as the Pieman so maybe some Lemon meringue got slung in there.

I'll be seeing the Pieman in about an hour. I'll ask him if he was messing with it.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Have you done maintenance on the foot pedal and the lever? I know you said the levers are lubed, but did that include taking them apart, cleaning them and then lubing them? At only a year old, I would think a sticky lever would be more likely then a bad switch. Of course, I've been wrong before!

Good luck!!

 

[RichDoyle]

Strangely, this bike has seen little riding in the rain. Hm, maybe that's the problem. Water withdrawal.

I do hate these kinds of problems, as you really don't know if it fixed it until something doesn't happen for a (week, month, eulogy?).

 

[Intech]

Strangely, this bike has seen little riding in the rain. Hm, maybe that's the problem. Water withdrawal.
I do hate these kinds of problems, as you really don't know if it fixed it until something doesn't happen for a (week, month, eulogy?).

It is likely one of the two switches. I agree with AJ that it is more likely the foot switch. You stated that you pressed it several times. With your toe or hand pull up on the lever and see if it moves. Very simple to take apart and clean. Take the two bolts out holding the lever and foot pedal from the frame. Disconnect the two springs, remove the cotter pin and pin from the brake cylinder clevis. The lever spline will push right out of the assembly. Thoroughly clean and re-lubricate everything and reassemble. If it is the hand lever switch it is a little more delicate work, but not bad. The pivot points on the levers are well known for collecting crud too.

 

[RichDoyle]

The next time it happens I'll run diagnostics, which will tell me which one it is. But pressing the foot brake several times DID NOT cause the brake lights to go out. I did that first, since that seemed most likely. Pulling the front brake lever a few times did shut off the brake lights.

 

[Intech]

The next time it happens I'll run diagnostics, which will tell me which one it is. But pressing the foot brake several times DID NOT cause the brake lights to go out. I did that first, since that seemed most likely. Pulling the front brake lever a few times did shut off the brake lights.

I got that about pressing the foot brake. What I was saying is AFTER pressing it pull up on it to see if it is sticking down. Very common problem. It could have drifted back up while you were pulling on the front brake..Both areas should get attention a couple of times a year. Especially if you ride in the rain as much as I do!

 

[steve_g]

There is a diag code or checking the cruise control cancelling circuit.

From what i can tell, there are 2 contacts in the rear brake switch. I had the rear brake cancelling the cc without turning the brake lights on. Also the front brake will cancel if not fully disengaged. Put the bike in diag mode 82 and play with the brakes, if it displays "ON" the cruise will not engage.

 

[garyahouse]

That front brake switch was the issue on my Gen 1. The switch was warn and sticky. I first noticed it when I was at Hot Rod Zilla's place a year ago. Some carefully placed aluminum tape enabled the brake lever to push the switch in further, which temporarily cured the "always on" condition, but purchasing a new switch a month later cured the problem.

FWIW.

Gary

darksider #44

 

[RichDoyle]

The next time it happens I'll run diagnostics, which will tell me which one it is. But pressing the foot brake several times DID NOT cause the brake lights to go out. I did that first, since that seemed most likely. Pulling the front brake lever a few times did shut off the brake lights.

I got that about pressing the foot brake. What I was saying is AFTER pressing it pull up on it to see if it is sticking down. Very common problem. It could have drifted back up while you were pulling on the front brake..Both areas should get attention a couple of times a year. Especially if you ride in the rain as much as I do!

Did that, both incidents. Foot brake seemed to have no effect. And both times cycling the front brake handle cleared the stop light issue. Turning the bike on and off cleared the code and the CC worked normally.

That said, I'll tackle both levers today, as I actually have the day free (a rarity lately). Conditionally I may check into the front switch itself.

 

[Donal]

I usually remove the lever assembly to get at the switches. It seems like it may be more work but removing the whole assembly makes it very easy to get at the switches.

 

[RichDoyle]

Okay - interim report, since I'm goofing off today otherwise. Problem happened again. So I try diagnostic 82 and 83. No real information. These diagnostics aren't terribly helpful in this intermittent situation. Neither diag indicates a problem, but I was able to determine a couple of things:

1. The point of the travel of the front brake lever where the switch engages/disengages has some variability, it seems to me. This is a data point noted for the future.

2. The rear brake switch activated fairly early in the downward travel of the brake pedal - definitely before the hydraulic back pressure is felt.

Okay, so I:

1. Re-lubed the Front brake lever, just for grins, even though I did it a couple of days ago.

2. Pulled the rear lever apart and cleaned and lubed it. No detectable dirt or grunge in the brake pedal mechanism itself and it had proper lubrication. But I noticed that the pin that connects the pedal to the rear master cylinder was dry and somewhat dirty, with no sign of lubrication. And it seemed to be sort of stuck in there. So it got cleaned and lubed, as well.

3. Adjusted the rear brake switch so it activates further in the pedal travel, closer to where the hydraulic pressure is detectable.

4. Reran diags 82&83, to confirm things were engaging/disengaging properly

I didn't do anything with the front switch for now. If the problem pops up again, then I'll deal with it. That way I'll know.

 

[Intech]

Your symptoms with the front switch sounds like it is sticking. I took my rear brake assembly apart today and took pictures of the process. I will put it together later. Mine was pretty well gunked up.

 

[RichDoyle]

Generally speaking, this is an interesting experience. All of the bikes I've had in the last 20 years have had brake lights controlled by switches in both brake controls and electrical interlocks with the clutch handle and the side stand. In all the others I never had a single problem with any of these. Not one. And I almost never lubricated a footbrake or either hand lever. And I absolutely never fiddled with the side stand in any way. They just always worked. Granted, I've never had a Cruise Control before, which does add some complexity, but really, with regard to this particular complication it's basically also a both-brake and clutch interlock, with an added throttle interlock.

Why then must this bike be so touchy about all this?

I'm also curious as to what causes the fault detection in the CC. Gotta dig a bit more into the wiring diagrams, but having brakes engaged is normal, as is having one engaged and the other not. Possibly there is some over-complication in the fault detection algorithm within the computer. I have an autopilot that, when I first got the plane, would disengage (with a warning) for no obvious reason. A software upgrade fixed this, and it hasn't happened now in 10 years. It turns out that self-checks in the unit were overzealous in getting excited about certain transient conditions and this was corrected by the manufacturer. Maybe we have something like that here. Being a software dude, I've seen this kind of thing in industrial controls.

 

[mcatrophy]

... Why then must this bike be so touchy about all this?
I'm also curious as to what causes the fault detection in the CC. ....

Don't overthink this. If the CC sees a brake or clutch activation it will disengage. The only "fault" is that a switch may operate when it shouldn't.
One of the FJR's few unwanted "features" is that the rear brake lever pivot can get sticky if not lubricated, leading to the switch remaining on after braking. Then the CC won't engage (and the rear brake disc gets hot).

There are a few instances of switch problems (quite rare). Again, all the CC is doing is obeying its rule, "if brake switch on then disengage CC". Simple as that.

 

[RichDoyle]

... Why then must this bike be so touchy about all this?
I'm also curious as to what causes the fault detection in the CC. ....

Don't overthink this. If the CC sees a brake or clutch activation it will disengage. The only "fault" is that a switch may operate when it shouldn't.
One of the FJR's few unwanted "features" is that the rear brake lever pivot can get sticky if not lubricated, leading to the switch remaining on after braking. Then the CC won't engage (and the rear brake disc gets hot).

There are a few instances of switch problems (quite rare). Again, all the CC is doing is obeying its rule, "if brake switch on then disengage CC". Simple as that.

It's the fault detection logic I don't get. What causes it to decide there's a fault to persist? The rule you cite is fine. But even when the brake lights are NOT on (or at least no longer on) the fault remains and you can't use the CC.