Wife getting better after the accident....

[nusman68]

As a lot of you will recall, my wife had nasty get-off about 3 weeks ago while we were on some back roads on the way from SugarLand to Fredricksburg (Tx). (That story is a few pages back in this same sub-category, in case you didn't catch it then..) The accident occured in Bastrop county, (outside of Austin, to keep it simple...) The good news: Susan's healing nicely, neck is looking great; pain/swelling to her leg resolving; bike is almost back together. The bad news: She gets a traffic citation in the mail from Texas DPS for 'unsafe speed', fine $190.00. What?! This was unexpected as the accident was completely unwitnessed, DPS troopers arrived at the scene after- the- fact; we think it's worth a roadtrip to fight it. Yeah, obviously she got wide in the turn, so one could argue she was going too fast for the line she picked through the turn; OTOH, it was unwitnessed, she couldn't even tell me how fast she was going at the time; I can tell you she's no speed demon, for sure. (Yeah, I know, doesn't change anything).

Thus, based on my own experiences of 'speeding ticket collectiing' over the years, I'm thinking of the following scenarios:

1) Roadtrip...plead not-guilty, based on the fact it was unwitnessed.

2) Plead no contest, request defensive driving (she would be eligible, but does 'unsafe speed' forfeit that possibility? I haven't checked on that yet).

3) Hire a lawyer...see if the judge will go for deferred adjudication..if no other citations are received in the next 3 - 6 mos., ticket is dropped off your record.

This is very frustrating for me personally, because whenever I scrape a drunk driver off the pavement (I work as a paramedic in a 911 service) if the 'accident' was not witnessed, they guy gets off. Let me explain the scenario: (and as a matter of fact, this exact thing happened last night while I was on duty). I respond, find a drunk driver that hit a tree, totalling his car. We treat & transport the guy. Since no one saw him driving the vehicle (even though he was in the driver's seat) all the police can get him for is public intoxication. Meanwhile, he's allowed to keep driving and putting others on the road at risk. Yet my wife gets a ticket....yeah...okay.... rant over..

Your suggestions please.

Thanks in advance

Brad

 

[Ignacio]

Focus on the ticket your wife received and not what happened to somebody else. They smacks of politics with government policy and you take that up with your legislator not worry about it on this board about FJRs.

And go with #1 if you feel comfortable representing yourself. Get a lawyer if not and resort to #3 if it looks like you won't get off.

 

[FJR_pig]

This won't help you too much, but I'll toss it up anyway. In Oregon, a police officer is allowed under the law to issue a citation at a crash, even if the traffic "violation" (not talkin' traffic "crimes" here) is unwitnessed. This is assuming the officer can prove the violation in court. How? Statements, physical evidence at the scene (road marks, damage to property, damage to offender's vehicle). From what you described here, honestly, I think the ticket would hold up. At least in most courts in Oregon (and we're pretty left here! ). Sorry to hear of the crash. I hope your wife heals well and soon!

 

[exskibum]

Can't speak for Texas, but the usual is that for a misdemeanor or an infraction (i.e., not a felony), the officer must witness the illegal activity. Not so for a felony. Not sure exactly where that line is drawn, since I know that if someone is found parked in a car 10 feet from the curb and is drunk, that has been enough to sustain a charge of drunk driving -- couldn't have gotten there without having driven the car in an intoxicated state.

I hate hearing about BS like your wife's ticket. How chicken shit!!! How the hell do they know a squirrel didn't run into the road and she crashed trying to avoid it? Nice to be kicked when down. As to the jurisprudential purpose of the ticket, it sure can't be to deter such conduct in the future, and punishment (retributive or rehabilitative intent) sure doesn't seem appropriate, nor does protecting the public (as in incarceration or pulling her license). I guess that leaves plain old revenue collecting. :angry2:

From what you described here, honestly, I think the ticket would hold up. At least in most courts in Oregon . . .

Fair enough interpretation. Wondering what the evidence is, though. Brad's statements on this board are at best speculation, since he didn't witness wife's get-off, IIRC. Maybe she made admissions to LEOs that couldn't be interpreted otherwise?

 

[Leartech]

Personally, I don't see how it could stand, but then again, I have little experience with this. You mentioned in #3 getting a lawyer and going with deferred adjudication. My last run in with DPS was for speeding in my truck, I called the number on the ticket and asked if the ticket qualified for deferred. Once you know it was qualified, I simply had to show up at the courthouse, sign the document saying I would be a good boy, paying the fine of course and going on about my business. At the end of 90 days, I showed up again, signed again and it was a done deal. No lawyer needed. If you go that route, you are paying the fine, but it doesn't go on your record once you get past the period of time determined by the deferred adjudication.

Anyway, I the basics of my reply is that the time I did defer a ticket, no lawyer was needed and the people at the courthouse were quite helpful with the whole process. Just have to ask the questions.

The whole thing sucks some major league you know what, and if I were to involve a lawyer at all, it would be to fight it.

Bryan

 

[Thug]

Another flea bitten copper flexing his pathetic little muscles! fuck em all I say and fight it, fuck him and the state he represents...why do you people cop this shit???? (Thug is very curious)

 

[feejer222]

As a lot of you will recall, my wife had nasty get-off about 3 weeks ago while we were on some back roads on the way from SugarLand to Fredricksburg (Tx). (That story is a few pages back in this same sub-category, in case you didn't catch it then..) The accident occured in Bastrop county, (outside of Austin, to keep it simple...) The good news: Susan's healing nicely, neck is looking great; pain/swelling to her leg resolving; bike is almost back together. The bad news: She gets a traffic citation in the mail from Texas DPS for 'unsafe speed', fine $190.00. What?! This was unexpected as the accident was completely unwitnessed, DPS troopers arrived at the scene after- the- fact; we think it's worth a roadtrip to fight it. Yeah, obviously she got wide in the turn, so one could argue she was going too fast for the line she picked through the turn; OTOH, it was unwitnessed, she couldn't even tell me how fast she was going at the time; I can tell you she's no speed demon, for sure. (Yeah, I know, doesn't change anything).Thus, based on my own experiences of 'speeding ticket collectiing' over the years, I'm thinking of the following scenarios:

1) Roadtrip...plead not-guilty, based on the fact it was unwitnessed.

2) Plead no contest, request defensive driving (she would be eligible, but does 'unsafe speed' forfeit that possibility? I haven't checked on that yet).

3) Hire a lawyer...see if the judge will go for deferred adjudication..if no other citations are received in the next 3 - 6 mos., ticket is dropped off your record.

This is very frustrating for me personally, because whenever I scrape a drunk driver off the pavement (I work as a parmedic in a 911 service) if the 'accident' was not witnessed, they guy gets off. Let me explain the scenario: (and as a matter of fact, this exact thing happened last night while I was on duty). I respond, find a drunk driver that hit a tree, totalling his car. We treat & transport the guy. Since no one saw him driving the vehicle (even though he was in the driver's seat) all the police can get him for is public intoxication. Meanwhile, he's allowed to keep driving and putting others on the road at risk. Yet my wife gets a ticket....yeah...okay.... rant over..

Your suggestions please.

Thanks in advance

Brad

Glad your better half is on the mend.

What strange laws you have there.

I would go to court if need be and fight all the way. I know for a fact that it would get thrown out here and the officer reprimanded for wasting everyones time.

All you have to do is say ''prove it''. He can't. End of conversation.

Why bother with radar equipment if the cop doesnt even need to see the speeding vehicle to book it??

As for a drunk driver crashing and not getting booked because no-one saw him driving??? It beggars beliefe, how do they prove a murder, does the cop actually have to see it happen?

 

[C&C]

Was a statement taken at the time of the accident? Did your wife state that she lost control (meaning, is it documented)? If the accident report just mentions that the bike slid out from under her or something similar (with no cause or actions attributed towards the get-off) then I would think the Officer would indeed have to have some proof of excessive speed. (And your defense could be most anything that could not be anticipated, i.e. loose gravel, scurrying animal, other lost traction not easily anticipated in normal motoring.)

 

[panayoti]

Glad to hear your wife is healing up.

It has been my experience with the sportbike riding crowd in Northeat Oklahoma that in most cases the cops write a ticket when someone crashes. This is especially true on twisty roads that are frequented by motorcycles. I guess it is an effort to deter.

One guy crashed and was taken to the hospital for a concusion. He was of course ticketed on the spot. He took it to court. The judge started asking him questions. This guy, due to the concusion, couldn't remember anything about the whole day except leavin he house in the morning. Case thrown out. :clapping:

 

[HaulinAshe]

Glad to hear she is doing better. Tell her the offer still stands and she can ride my FJR at "unsafe speed" anytime.

Not sure if TX offers the reduction to "Improper Equipment", but here in NC that results in no points on the license and a not-so-bad fine. Certainly seems that something wrong with the bike, like a bad tire etc., is as plausible an explanation for what happened as "Unsafe Speed".

Hiring the lawyer is almost always cheaper than the points on the license. But I would be comfortable arguing her case in person unless she made some confession to the police officer that you are not (yet) aware of. Seems even then, that her physical trauma would be enough to discount her statement at the scene.

Good luck to you both.

Thug,

I have no idea why we tolerate this type of crap. For most, it comes down to the money and time required to fight such things. There's an entire industry generated by the overcrowded court system which caters to people who simply cannot afford the time off work or away from their family to represent themselves in court.

 

[bramfrank]

I'm a big proponent of fighting tickets, but you haven't got much of a case for the defense.

The ticket was issued based on going faster than conditions allowed for safe driving - strangely, the same ticket could have been issued no matter what the situation - unless you get hit by another car, you get swept away in a flash flood or a meteor crashes down upon you. It is a sort-of catch-all charge

The underlying logic is that the driver is responsible for maintaning control of his/her vehicle no matter what. The crash proves that she was not in control. So the ticket gets issued as a natural consequence. Had she not been going as fast as she was, then she wouldn't have lost control and crashed, hence she was driving too fast for the conditions.

You might be able to plead it down to a non-moving violaion, which will reduce the future sting on insurance premiums. Ends up probably being cheaper than hiring a lawyer and has the same result.

 

[FJRMGM]

First and foremost - I'm glad your wife is recovering from what could have been a life-ending accident.

But, ummmm, did we miss this line? ----> "Yeah, obviously she got wide in the turn, so one could argue she was going too fast for the line she picked through the turn."

If she wasn't going an "unsafe speed" then why didn't she negotiate the corner?

The D.A. might argue lots of people go around that corner safely but for some reason she didn't - so what else caused the accident if it wasn't unsafe speed?

Good luck on the ticket but the fact that a vehicle left the road for no apparent reason does kinda point to "unsafe speed" as the reason. Especially if there was damage to the bike and the fence she ran into.

This is just a suggestion but since it appears obvious you are a faster rider than your wife - let her lead the rides so you go HER speed instead of her trying to keep up with YOUR speed so she can handle it.

 

[Thug]

Jeffashe thanks for the heads up in your land of plenty!

So is it a requirement by law that your wife has to provide proof or does the courts require the coppers to provide proof for such a considered ticket? If you are going into a corner at any speed and you hit a bump or ride over a small stone at slow speeds it can still buck you no matter how good you think you are as we all know...I have read all above and still consider this to be nothing more than revenue raising for the state and has nothing to do with a deterrent for motorcycle safety.

 

[nusman68]

Focus on the ticket your wife received and not what happened to somebody else. They smacks of politics with government policy and you take that up with your legislator not worry about it on this board about FJRs.
And go with #1 if you feel comfortable representing yourself. Get a lawyer if not and resort to #3 if it looks like you won't get off.

Yeah, your right Matt..I apologize....not trying to turn it into a dreaded political thread.

I guess what really gets to me is that no one saw the accident, not even me; I was about 100 yds ahead over a small rise; in addition the troopers never talked to her or got a statement; (they did have an opportunity to). All I told them was 'she got wide in the turn'.

Well, obviously.

So yes, the natural conclusion would be too assume that she was going too fast; OTOH, she may have simply blown the turn at a 'normal' speed. I'll never know, she couldn't even tell me her speed, as she later told me she had her hands full dealing with the turn and wasn't looking at the speedometer...but as FJRMGM mentioned you can't deny the fact the crash did happen, so...

Personally, I have never gotten a ticket 'in this way', if you will; anytime I have gotten one, its been for speeding. They nail me fair & square, I did it, I deal with it. Maybe that's what is really pissing me off about this deal; that it wasn't 'typical'.

I would have to admit some 'expectations' came into play here...I suppose If they had told me at the scene to expect a citation that would have been different; but to get it in the mail 3 weeks later? What? Now I know how others must feel when they get a citation from one of those traffic cameras; of course, in those cases, they have you on film/tape.

In addition, after everything was done, the one trooper asked me if that was my FJR; we talked a bit, he told me he had an '03, asked me where I got the frame sliders...etc...a few days later, the same trooper called me to ask where the bike had been towed, for his report. He asked how Susan was doing, etc; most officers I have ever gotten a ticket from were 'all business', not participating in friendly banter.

I' ll let you know how it turns out; again, thanks to all for the replies and insight; suffice to say I'll be 'taking it easy' when Susan gets back out on the road again to reestablish her confidence level. Edit: @FJRMGM: FWIW she actually does 'ride her own ride', and not try to keep up with me in certain areas. Once I lose sight of her though, I'll throttle down and we hook up again; other times we go along enjoying the scenery.

Regards

Brad

 

[dcarver]

The underlying logic is that the driver is responsible for maintaning control of his/her vehicle no matter what. The crash proves that she was not in control. So the ticket gets issued as a natural consequence. Had she not been going as fast as she was, then she wouldn't have lost control and crashed, hence she was driving too fast for the conditions.

So, I'm legally parked by the curbside and just taking off. Right as I start forward motion, the dreaded TPS sensor fails, the bike stalls, and down we go. The bike scratches the parked car that was right beside me, property is damaged. I can still get a ticket for going as fast I was? Even though, literally, it was a lack of speed that contributed to the crash? This just doesn't seem right.

Hey Thug - ready for a new neighbor? I've about had enough of this crap.

Oh, bramfrank, please don't read this a barb at you, it's not. You're just the messenger stating the way it is, and not the way we want it to be or should be.

 

[Geezer]

I suggest the first thing you do is call the court clerk and congenially ask how that court typically handles a situation like yours. You may be able get a satisfactory solution without having to appear in court or spending money on an attorney. Worth a try.

 

[RonBB]

I suggest the first thing you do is call the court clerk and congenially ask how that court typically handles a situation like yours. You may be able get a satisfactory solution without having to appear in court or spending money on an attorney. Worth a try.

+1 I agree

 

[theotherscott]

The DPS officers name wasn't Sanchez, was it? I had the same thing happen to me in 2002. I was riding with a group in the hill country and crashed on 337 between Camp Wood and Leakey. Trooper Sanchez mailed me a ticket after the fact. I tried to fight it, without any success. I first hired a lawyer, who did not show up on the court date and caused them to issue a warrant. I then contacted the Justice of the Peace of Camp Wood directly, and she was nice enough to kill the warrant and allow me to take defensive driving. During the conversation with her though, it was apparent that she felt if Sanchez issued a ticket then I was guilty and any efforts to fight it would be fruitless.

Also, the lawyer that I 'hired' that did absolutely nothing told me to sue her when I asked for a refund.

My advice would be to try for defensive driving.

 

[Scab]

Sue the state for improper maintenance of road surfaces, thus creating an unsafe condition.

(I keed, I keed!)