Ignition fix

[Fred W]

Jumping in here, I have to admit that I am a bit confused. Not to say that this is an infrequent state for me... :blink:
My prior impression was that this is primarily a model year 2006 phenomenon. That all of the documented ignition switch melt-downs had occured on 2006 bikes. There have been other ignition related switch failures, but not the ones where the leads unsolder themselves inside the switch due to the high current flow overheating the solder points.

Am I wrong? Or are people just wanting to do this to all 2nd gens as a prophylactic measure?

07s are drpping like flies also. Check out the pinned post on the ignition failuers - 16 pages and going strong. I'd guess that we'll also start seeing the 08s joining the party shortly.

I just scanned through the pinned post again. A few things seem evident.

1) The desoldered switches are primarily on model 2006 years bikes.

2) There are some switch failures reported on '03, '04 and '07 bikes. From what I can see, none of these are due to the desoldering wires, purportedly due to the high load through the switch. There was one '07 with pictures of the slide assembly that apparently overheated the plastic carrier. This may or may not be due to the same root cause.

3) The most curious thing of all is the conspicuous lack of reported failures on 2005 model year bikes. One would expect a low number of '08's as they haven't been around long enough, but no '05's?

Things that make you go Hmmm.

One more comment: Perhaps in the design of this bypass relay, which makes all the sense in the world to me, you might want to include an "emergency ignition switch bypass cable". This would allow you to connect the two relay cables together and take the ignition switch completely out of the picture, should it fail again. Or maybe the way it is designed (male plugs into female), one would not be needed?

The reason I see for for having this is that, although the relay will remove the biggest root causes of the switch failure, it is apparent that overheating is not the only cause of failure. Now wouldn't it be nice to have an easy way to hotwire the bike should it fail some day when in the middle of nowhere?

 

[Neil San Diego]

There was one '07 with pictures of the slide assembly that apparently overheated the plastic carrier. This may or may not be due to the same root cause.

I believe you're refering to my 07. It had both problems; melted plastic switchplate and a lead that detached (desoldered). Personally, I'm thinking that these two problems are intimately connected. If I saw a melted plastic switchplate, I would bet that the soldered lead joint would be in some stage of failure. YMMV...

The reason I see for for having this is that, although the relay will remove the biggest root causes of the switch failure, it is apparent that overheating is not the only cause of failure.

Not sure I agree with that yet, although we still don't have any definate answers on the cause(s) of this yet.

 

[Fred W]

Not sure I agree with that yet, although we still don't have any definate answers on the cause(s) of this yet.

Some of the failures appear to be due to dirty switch contacts (especially with the older, more weathered 1st gens) and some are due to wires that physically broke off outside of the ignition switch.

Maybe I'm wrong and the overheating is the only problem. That would be very nice if that were true, in which case the emergency jumper would be un-necessary.

 

[Zorlac]

3) The most curious thing of all is the conspicuous lack of reported failures on 2005 model year bikes. One would expect a low number of '08's as they haven't been around long enough, but no '05's?
Things that make you go Hmmm.

One more comment: Perhaps in the design of this bypass relay, which makes all the sense in the world to me, you might want to include an "emergency ignition switch bypass cable". This would allow you to connect the two relay cables together and take the ignition switch completely out of the picture, should it fail again. Or maybe the way it is designed (male plugs into female), one would not be needed?

The reason I see for for having this is that, although the relay will remove the biggest root causes of the switch failure, it is apparent that overheating is not the only cause of failure. Now wouldn't it be nice to have an easy way to hotwire the bike should it fail some day when in the middle of nowhere?

1) 2005

2) 32,000 miles

3)Died a few weeks ago pulling out from a driveway onto a main road.

4) Power stays on, but the ECU is fooled by intermittent contacts in the ignition switch.

5)N/A

6)I was stalled on the shoulder a few moments so I cycled the key off then on and then she started and ran fine after that.

When my bike cranks, but doesn't start, sometimes it'll throw a code 19 if I crank it long enough, but I don't crank it for very long anymore since I've traced it to the ignition switch being intermittent with the side stand switch being fine.

If I cycle the key off then on, I've been good to go so far.

 

[adaniel]

After also having had the issue on my 07 (pictures posted under earlier thread: https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?s...t&p=468595), my two cents are on a bad solder joint(s). This has caused a high resistance connection, leading to the lifted red/brown wires and the heat that deformed my switch plate.

After going back in and re-soldering, I have had no issues other than the one spring loaded contact bar occasionally sticking in the switch plate (white holder). I've gone back in three times and no other issues noted. If I could only get another switch plate I believe all would be well.

I don't think anyone believes they are pulling 70, 60, or even 50A through this circuit. That being said, the addition of a relay would essentially eliminate the current draw through the switch and hopefully negate a weak solder joint failure. I think the possibility is still there. ???

As noted before, I'm guessing the wire insulation is rated at either 95C (203F) or 105C (223F) and showed no signs of damage/heat... not too much current for the wire. However the solder joint on mine had lifted with solder usually taking 400F to flow. How do you lift a 400F solder joint without seeing damage on a 200F wire? There was also a solder halo remaining mirroring the solder cup on mine. Remember, I think lead solder is gone in the new world of RoHS and GREEN.

While this might not be the issue, I can easily see improper procedures being used to pre-tin the solder cup or contaminants in the cup before the wiring assembly is attached.

I can not speak to the Gen I bikes, but I see boxes of Gen II switches in the warehouse (that are suspect) being built into bikes from 2006 into 2007. It's also a guess that Yamaha is working on the problem, but is still feeling the ECU issue. Sorry to drag this into what should have been discussed in the earlier thread.

 

[Zorlac]

"However the solder joint on mine had lifted with solder usually taking 500-600F to flow."

440 F looks to be one of the higher lead free solder melting points, depending on the alloys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder

 

[painman]

Fantastic Brodie!! That's what I wanted to do, but I couldn't figure out where to find the harnesses. Great job!But if you have a low milage GenII with no signs of problems, the Brodie plug-n-play may be all you need to keep the gremlins at bay...FYI.

I pretty much fall into this catagory. Let us know when they are ready. And I like the idea of the extra option of the hotwire. So Brodie put me on the list please. PM. <><

 

[adaniel]

"However the solder joint on mine had lifted with solder usually taking 500-600F to flow."
440 F looks to be one of the higher lead free solder melting points, depending on the alloys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder

Thanks...I edited my post....

...As noted before, I'm guessing the wire insulation is rated at either 95C (203F) or 105C (223F) and showed no signs of damage/heat... not too much current for the wire. However the solder joint on mine had lifted with solder usually taking 400F to flow. How do you lift a 400F solder joint without seeing damage on a 200F wire? There was also a solder halo remaining mirroring the solder cup on mine. ...

 

[Fred W]

"However the solder joint on mine had lifted with solder usually taking 500-600F to flow."
440 F looks to be one of the higher lead free solder melting points, depending on the alloys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder

Thanks...I edited my post....

...As noted before, I'm guessing the wire insulation is rated at either 95C (203F) or 105C (223F) and showed no signs of damage/heat... not too much current for the wire. However the solder joint on mine had lifted with solder usually taking 400F to flow. How do you lift a 400F solder joint without seeing damage on a 200F wire? There was also a solder halo remaining mirroring the solder cup on mine. ...

If the contact itself is resistive, it is the source of the heat. The solder joint would be considerably hotter than the wire.

 

[Cdogman]

Earlier this year my switch failed 2 days before I was leaving for 8 days to play with the California FJR Contingent. I did not have time to get the switch replaced and there is a post here on how to fix it.. Fix Clicky

I followed the instructions and my bike fired right up and has had no problems since..

I used to work on the F18 fighter jets in the Navy as an Electronics Technician, some of that work was on large wire bundles that had a failure in them. The cause of the failure was very evident to me once I drilled the tamper-proof screws out and took the switch apart for repair. I could not see the cause prior to disassembly of the switch..

The wires entering the switch housing were pulled so tight inside the actual switch the solder joint was under constant strain until it had failed, probably due to vibration and general fatigue. When I re-soldered the connection I added a miniscule amount of slack at the point that held the cable immobile at the entry of the switch housing (when it is screwed together it clamps the 4 wires the the sheathing in place)

I do not expect the problem to reoccur on this bike... I would imagine the person doing the assembly thought they were doing a super nice tight clean job.. But it was too tight.. based on my experience anyway..

Heat could be a contributing factor as well... but mine was fairly obvious to me

FWIW, I spent .42 on 2 screws to place back into the holes that I drilled the others from.. But you do need to buy or own a soldering iron and have some solder

YMMV

 

[Neil San Diego]

Some of the failures appear to be due to dirty switch contacts (especially with the older, more weathered 1st gens) and some are due to wires that physically broke off outside of the ignition switch.

You're correct, I forgot about the handful of problems that were simply gunk in the contact area of the switch.

 

[Fred W]

Some of the failures appear to be due to dirty switch contacts (especially with the older, more weathered 1st gens) and some are due to wires that physically broke off outside of the ignition switch.

You're correct, I forgot about the handful of problems that were simply gunk in the contact area of the switch.

I still think it is a crazy design to have so much of the bike's electric current load going through the cheesy little contacts of the ignition switch. The proposed relay logic fix is a sound one, IMO, and could very well prevent a failure on any model year bike, especially if you are adding farkles to the switched power.

 

[Roy Epperson]

This harness he built, is just like a factory harness.. yamaha connector, soldered, shrink rapped... if you pulled my tank and heat shield off, you couldn't tell the difference .......it really turned out great.........

B......

Ya know when ya modify your FJR, ya gotta take it for a ride :yahoo: Thus a delayed report

I can confirm Brian's assessment of Brodie's relay/harness kit. :clapping:

Brodie brought a "production" version over to my house this afternoon to test its installation on my '07. The quality and workmanship was fantastic and installation was a breeze. I can't comment on elapsed time from start to finish as we discussed lead lengths and routing to improve it, and (more importantly) other not related "things FJR".

Simple process:

• Remove gas tank, T-bar and heat shield
• Locate the red and white connectors underneath the top / forward most T-bar attachment
• Position the relay/harness assembly
• Disconnect the white connector
• Plug in the relay/harness into the OEM connectors
• Connect the ground wire
• Turn on key to make sure everything powers up
• Turn off key
• Use cable ties to hold the harness to the OEM harness
• If it powered up, proceed to your next under gas tank project
• Close it back up and "RIDE"
  
• Did I forget, go for a ride

We (Brodie, my wife and I) went to a late lunch and then my wife and I ran some errands and then did a 70 mile, 80 degree, sunset ride, California fall ride....

I have put on 12000 miles since May and had not experienced an ignition switch problem but figured an "ounce of prevention is better that a pound of cure".

Thumbs up to Brodie (and Brian) for developing this solution!!

Roy (BMRZMR2)

 

[S76]

Thanks Brodie for the diagram and parts references. I ordered all the bits to build one. I think I may add two additional wires with bullet connectors to energize the relay in case of switch failures due to dirt or whatever. They can be hidden where easily accessible and all you need to do is plug them in if needed.

Again thanks.

Bob

 

[ahchiu]

I'll take one, please add me to the list, PM me when they are ready.

Thanks,

Marcus

 

[hecpilot]

Please add me to the list. Can't wait to buy one!

 

[GAPS]

Yes please, I would like one too.

 

[zzzzip]

Since I have an '06 I plan to keep, and will be under the tank soon to drop in new plugs, please put me on the list.

This is good timing as I was considering adding some electrics like GPS and grip warmers and was wondering how to do it a better (more secure) way.

Thanks.

B)

 

[Bigbeavk]

I have an 07 with 4k miles so far. I sure would like to add one of these before I have a problem. Can someone let me know if they are in production yet?

 

[Luke]

Add me to the pre-order list.