Learning to turn properly

[mcatrophy]

Almost guaranteed what others have said above, a case of "target fixation". Not necessarily a fixed "target", but if you look at the curb on the outside of the road, you will track towards it.

DON'T LOOK AT THE CURB. Look along the path you want to take, keep on scanning your desired path from near the bike along your envisioned green line to as far as the corner allows you to see. You then almost can't fail to follow that line.

Following another rider probably won't help with this for when you are on your own, you will simply follow him/her, looking at their bike, which you will naturally follow. It may (or may not ) help to teach you a "good" line through the corner, but won't help when you're not following.

 

[rushes]

I think back on a ride I did a couple years ago on a borrowed Harley in a curve and darned if it isn't the exact thing that I'm talking about now. So obviously it's a pattern in my riding or a big lack of knowledge and I need to fix that.

That might have a bit to do with it too.

Your bike will lean much further than a Harley.

You might think about getting out in a big empty parking lot like a mall on an early Sunday morning and do some figure 8's and play with how far you can lean.

Get to know the bike and be more relaxed and comfortable practicing in a safe situation.

 

[LKLD]

Target fixation should not be underestimated. The psychological aspect you've mentioned, I agree with. You feel comfortable with right turn, at least more so than left turns. Low siding better than high siding, as you mentioned, tells me this is in your head.

I suspect you feel a little anxiety going into left turns, and in doing so, you feel yourself losing your predetermined line, which will cause you to look down at your line. That's where things will go wrong for you. Trusting yourself, and your sight line, takes time (aka..experience).

My advice:

Like was mentioned before, find a experienced rider, who's willing to help you, by allowing you to follow them through curve at a slower pace (no "look what I can do" types). Preferably with headset communications, so they can tell you what they're doing, looking at.

If that isn't an option, then find a piece of road that isn't traveled very much. It doesn't have to be a long road either, preferably not actually, so as to reduce traffic. This way, you can go slow(er), and work on your line of sight, and trusting it to take you through the turn.

After a few days, you'd be surprised how much more comfortable you'll become with the lefties.

All the best, and keep us informed on your progress,

Rob

 

[TomInPA]

A lot of confidence in curves comes from experience, and there is no substitute. Ride within your abilities, and you will live to acquire the experience that allows you to improve those abilities. The best riders seem to develop skills on tracks, with coaching supervision, not on the road.

In the first post, the figure showing the desired line and problem line, fails to show the ideal line which is later apex. Starting the curve outside of both the red and green lines, and finishing inside the green line is where I want to be for better visibility, stability and to allow for the opportunity to take evasive action if an oncoming vehicle is in my lane. Early apex as shown in that figure's green line, can get you nailed by a car or motorcycle that runs wide, and gives you no place to go.

I have learned that there are many FJR riders that are more skilled (or daring) than I am, and can confidently navigate curves faster than I wil, many who are about equal in their skill and comfort level, and some who are slower. It's okay! Ride within your comfort zone, and everyone gets to meet up at the end of the day and have a beer.

 

[Uncle Hud]

Lots of good advice, but I really like this:

TomInPA posted: A lot of confidence in curves comes from experience, and there is no substitute. Ride within your abilities, and you will live to acquire the experience that allows you to improve those abilities. The best riders seem to develop skills on tracks, with coaching supervision, not on the road.

First thing: Ride your own ride. Ride slowly if that's your thing, and don't be embarrassed or ashamed. You'll live to ride another day.

Many people I ride with do not have the confidence/experience to trust their tires with serious lean angles. To repeat what NTXFJR said above, the FJR will lean WAY farther than my comfort zone; I have scraped the peg feeler only once in almost 40,000 miles and I ride pretty fast.

To gain confidence in lean angles, try a simple, low-speed exercise. Go to a large, empty parking lot -- shopping center, high school. Locate a spot (parking stripe intersection, light pole, your own cone) and slowly circle around it. As you work through a dozen or so identical circles, try speeding up slightly. As you go faster, you'll have to lean a little farther. If left-hand curves are your problem area, start with right-hand circles to warm up, then attack your problem.

An alternative is to set up two spots and do figure-8's; they provide both left- and right-hand curves. Don't be afraid to tap the rear brake if you feel like you're running a little too fast. (Another alternative is to do multiple circuits in a roundabout -- ala Clark Griswold -- but that will only work you through left-hand turning.)

Riding in circles sounds silly, but it will focus your your sensory systems on the physics of leaning through the turn, and help you maintain speed through the turn. Repetition will give you FOCUSED EXPERIENCE with turning, and increase your confidence that the tires on your bike will grip no matter how far you tip the bike.

There's also no substitute for serious, in-person training from a knowledgeable source. (Not us internet yahoos.)

 

[Laser Dude]

Thanks Guys, good info. I tend to agree with many of you, it's target fixation. It's certainly not a speed related issue. I'm always the last guy in the line and last week on a mountain ride, a guy on a trike outpaced me on curves, so I don't believe I'm being foolish or riding recklessly, however, I do believe I am capable of making mistakes while gathering enough experience to have muscle memory and making sure I'm looking through the curves 100% of the time.

I don't think anyone that has ridden with me would characterize my riding as anything other than "Pokey"

I'm a self confessed newbie (I completely discount all my riding experience from 30 years ago), but I'm also determined to learn good technique and critique myself every ride.

 

[Uncle Hud]

Well, I politely disagree: I think it IS a speed problem. To maintain speed through a curve you must lean the bike over. To maintain a fast speed through a curve, you must lean the bike WAY over.

Leaning the bike is a scary proposition, because your brain is telling you the bike will fall over or the tires will slide out from under you. An FJR with good rubber on decent pavement won't do either one.

rushes posted: You might think about getting out in a big empty parking lot like a mall on an early Sunday morning and do some figure 8's and play with how far you can lean. Get to know the bike and be more relaxed and comfortable practicing in a safe situation.

What he said.

 

[Blind Squirrel]

A class is worth every dollar IMO. Total Control ARC is coming to Woodbridge in September:

https://www.apexcycleeducation.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=41&cat=Total+Control+Advanced+Riding+Clinic

From the site: CORNERING TECHNIQUE is the primary focus of the Total Control ARC. Individual skills include corner entry, line selection, body position and corner exit.

 

[LittleJon]

I don't see it being mentioned, so I'll throw it out there. It is hard to re-teach yourself turns, coming form a long time driving a car. If you're going in to a left hand turn, and your anxious about it, and you over think, it might be very difficult to overcome muscle memory. Your automatic reaction when you start to go wide in a turn is to turn into it harder. In a car, you steer left. On a bike, you steer right. I'm not looking to open up a counter-steering argument, but it is possible that your issue is an automatic attempt to move your motorcycle like you would move a car. That will straight line you right out of a curve.

Just an idea, not a diagnosis.

 

[hppants]

There was a time when I would regularly (every other month or so) stop at an empty parking lot and practice a few 8s, circles, panic stops, evasive lane shifts, etc. Nothing major - just 10 minutes going over a few things. Admittedly, I don't think I've done that once in the last year or so.

Guess where I'm going this weekend?

 

[Gnirtsnod]

"Thanks guys, just to repeat something I have said repeatedly, since a few people thought I shouldn't be riding, I said this has happened twice." "That's why I asked, because I'm trying to educate myself."

This forum should be here to ask this type of question to get better at what we do, so I'm glad you asked and I look forward to meeting you out on the road. My hangup is right-hand switchbacks and yours is left-hand turns. In my case, it's a mental block - an unreasonable fear of not being able to make it - so I seek out the opportunities to challenge myself and haven't failed yet, but the fear is still there.

Of course I ride an 850 pound beast, HD Ultra, and am just now looking forward to jumping on the FJR of my own. I will say that IF you are ever caught in that pucker position again, remember that the lean angle on the FJR is way more forgiving so rather than run off the road, push harder to lean into the curve more. Otherwise, prepare for the curve using some of the tips mentioned above. ...Don

 

[BikerGeek99]

A class is worth every dollar IMO. Total Control ARC is coming to Woodbridge in September:
https://www.apexcycleeducation.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=41&cat=Total+Control+Advanced+Riding+Clinic

From the site: CORNERING TECHNIQUE is the primary focus of the Total Control ARC. Individual skills include corner entry, line selection, body position and corner exit.

This!

I bought my FJR in April 2008. At EOM 2008, I realized just how little skill I had as a rider. After talking with extrememarine, I looked in to and would up taking the course above. It helped me immensely. I'm still shitty and slow, but at least I have some skills for when / if I need 'em.

 

[Laser Dude]

I asked my instructor if people had a bias to turning one way or another, or favored one way or another and he said "Most definitely". He said his was to the right.

Judging by the fairings in the parking lot at Bike Night, I'm a lot better at it than the majority of people

 

[hppants]

My issue is the decreasing radius turn - more specifically, the ones I am not familiar with.

 

[roger dodger]

OP, So many great comments already (including 'don't try to follow these guys comments') ....

But I found a little trick to the 'riding out' problem. It really is ' you go where you look', so when I rode wide, I found I was looking wide... as in the outside line of a curve. Now I consciously focus on the INSIDE line of a curve, and can usually stay on it, but later choose to drift out to set up the next curve.

This focus on the inside line always worked on the RH curves, 'cause I would follow the inside line from the apex. I usually failed this on the LH curves, 'cause I would start to see where to phase out, and go there LITERALLY too soon.

Stay focused on the INSIDE line from the apex on, and gradually fade out AFTER you are comfortable and in control.

Also, slow in.... then stay on (some) throttle while you go out.

Ride safe.... and enjoy the process.

 

[steveoreno]

A great source of information on just exactly what you are asking is a book called "Proficient Motorcycling" by David Hough. I ordered both his 1st and 2nd volumes from the library and probably should read them again. You can also order them on Amazon if you want your own copies. It addresses what you are asking about and more. The best part is that they come in coffee table sized books and are very easy to read.
I'm still trying to get good at what you are working on. I think it is always a work in progress and takes lots of practice.

Beat me to it, imho this is one of the best books out there.

 

[TomInPA]

My issue is the decreasing radius turn - more specifically, the ones I am not familiar with.

Pants, this video isn't great, but the concept of the "vanishing point" really helped my riding on unknown roads with decreasing radius turns. Adjust speed to line of sight. Makes a lot of sense, but harder to do.

 

[FJRLoonie]

One thing I noticed myself is that I didn't tilt my head as much in a left turn. As a result. i felt that I was leaned over more than I really was. Once I focused on tilting my head to keep the horizon level, left turns came easier.

 

[Laser Dude]

Lots of great advice, I've bookmarked a number of things, and I'll be looking into the Apex class. I can't make the one in September, but will look at future classes. Overall, I think I'm doing the right things. I feel good about my progress, and the vast majority of the time, I feel good about looking ahead, picking the lines, and getting through the curves. I can ALWAYS improve for sure. One thing I noticed when following some very experienced riders is that they don't mind crossing the yellow lines in a turn if nothing is coming, while I NEVER do that. I'm very anal about not crossing the yellow lines. I actually really enjoy going out for a ride on a curvy road and really trying 100% to nail everything. Looking ahead, corner speeds, lines, braking before the turn, rolling on the throttle at the right time, etc. I really, really like trying to be perfect in doing that. That's how I'm trying to ride, taking the curves and trying to ride every one perfect. My main question was something that's popped up twice in over 5000 miles, so I was hoping for some insight into what happened, where I went wrong.

Sounds to me like it's target fixation and I think continuing to do exactly what I've been doing, heading for curvy roads, analyzing my ride while doing it, riding in front and in back of more experienced riders, along with continuing my education will give me the confidence to be a better rider. The good news is that it's not the normal for me, it's the exception, but I'd like to plan for the exceptions as well, in case I find myself in those situations for whatever reason, I can act accordingly and not become a statistic.

I've got some family issues what will take me away from riding for a little while, but once I get through those, I'll strap on the GoPro and post a video here and get some feedback.

 

[wheatonFJR]

Just so you know, most of us are NOT mcy instructors, but just relate from our own experiences/biases.

I highly suggest you read some good material, but even more suggest you get out into the parking lot. I even suggest that you buy a little rat bike you don't mind dumping in the parking lot as the FJR can be a heavy bitch at low speeds. So, if you are serious, buy an inexpensive rat bike, say a 500 and "go to town" on your circling and figure 8 skills in the parking lot.

What you need to work on is your muscle memory and that takes riding.