Ok, do you "fast shift" or "slow shift"?

[art miller]

Is there any mechanical downside to clutchless upshifting with proper timing so as to not rake the gears?

 

[rPGoatBoy]

Is there any mechanical downside to clutchless upshifting with proper timing so as to not rake the gears?

Yes, you can't guarantee you're unloading the transmission enough to not bend a shift fork during upshifting, IMHO. They're a bit uhh...fraah-gee-lay. Cutting back the throttle unloads a bunch of torque off of the trans, but not entirely. Yes, in theory, I suppose you could be a frickin Rainman like robot with your shift and hit that fraction of a millisecond sweet spot of zero load (between acceleration & deceleration loads), but it's probably not worth the risk.

 

[CA G-Man]

Is there any mechanical downside to clutchless upshifting with proper timing so as to not rake the gears?

Yes, you can't guarantee you're unloading the transmission enough to not bend a shift fork during upshifting, IMHO. They're a bit uhh...fraah-gee-lay. Cutting back the throttle unloads a bunch of torque off of the trans, but not entirely. Yes, in theory, I suppose you could be a frickin Rainman like robot with your shift and hit that fraction of a millisecond sweet spot of zero load (between acceleration & deceleration loads), but it's probably not worth the risk.

With all due respect GoatBoy (now there's a phrase I never thought I'd type

), have you ever actually done a clutchless up-shift? Your comment about "hit[ting] that fraction of a millisecond sweet spot..." suggests to me that you think it involves stabbing at the shift lever or something like that. The technique involves "pre-loading" by putting a little upward pressure on the shift lever and maintaining it. When you roll off the throttle smoothly but quickly the lever just clicks up when it's ready (i.e. when there's no load from the engine). There's absolutely no timing involved. You could ride for miles with your toe in the pre-load position and nothing will happen unless and until you roll off the throttle quickly and assertively at an appropriate (relatively high) RPM.

Maybe I misunderstood your comments, but I really don't see how timing is involved at all.

 

[Wlfman]

I clutchless shift so its fast and smooth as butter.

 

[Wlfman]

Is there any mechanical downside to clutchless upshifting with proper timing so as to not rake the gears?

Yes, you can't guarantee you're unloading the transmission enough to not bend a shift fork during upshifting, IMHO. They're a bit uhh...fraah-gee-lay. Cutting back the throttle unloads a bunch of torque off of the trans, but not entirely. Yes, in theory, I suppose you could be a frickin Rainman like robot with your shift and hit that fraction of a millisecond sweet spot of zero load (between acceleration & deceleration loads), but it's probably not worth the risk.

I put 90K+ miles on my FZ1 doing clutchless shifts and NEVER had a problem...

 

[palerider]

Is there any mechanical downside to clutchless upshifting with proper timing so as to not rake the gears?

Yes, you can't guarantee you're unloading the transmission enough to not bend a shift fork during upshifting, IMHO. They're a bit uhh...fraah-gee-lay. Cutting back the throttle unloads a bunch of torque off of the trans, but not entirely. Yes, in theory, I suppose you could be a frickin Rainman like robot with your shift and hit that fraction of a millisecond sweet spot of zero load (between acceleration & deceleration loads), but it's probably not worth the risk.

I put 90K+ miles on my FZ1 doing clutchless shifts and NEVER had a problem...

Anybody know how the AE functions in regard to this question? It seems unlikely that there is any preload, and I'm thinking (without really knowing anything) that the clutch just unloads a little when I shift in either direction, and I'm unaware of any pattern of AE transmission issues. I suspect that if you're just being reasonable about shifting, i.e. not thrashing the gears without backing off the throttle a little, then you're not going to hurt the FJR's transmission no matter how you shift.

 

[Old Guy]

Is there any mechanical downside to clutchless upshifting with proper timing so as to not rake the gears?

The gears are constantly meshed anyway, so you won't be raking any gears. It's just a matter of personal choice. I've tried both ways and strongly prefer fanning the clutch. Others don't. No big deal either way.

 

[art miller]

I find myself, an old guy, kinda following Old Guys method. I have made clutchless shifts from time to time but I prefer fanning the clutch. I'm still having mixed results in getting a smooth shift from N into 1st. I've tried pumping the clutch, blipping the throttle and then shift, and holding the clutch for count of three before going into first. The results are mixed regardless of the method used. I hate the nasty clunk.

 

[BakerBoy]

Art, will it pull up into second smoothly (while stopped)? If so, you could then downshift into first.

 

[Salish1300]

I'm still learning the nuances of the FJR shifting but I can say it is far, far smoother at going into 1st from N than my previous 09 Versys. Now that thing clunked. Most of the time the red baron drops into 1st and there isn't so much as a vibration. And I also notice that going to second it is much less prone to missing and ending up in N. I realize this is mainly rider error, but if I was lazy footed on my Versys I would hit N. On the FJR I think I have missed 2nd and only hit N maybe once.

I smile every single day that I have a hydraulic shifter now and don't have worry about lubing a cable or barrel adjusting. Flushing fluids is downright fun and easy compared to lubing a cable.

 

[Cav47]

I appreciate the fact that some guys love to talk about this stuff. I am not one of them, but in the spirit of tolerance, understanding and gained knowledge, I read the whole 4 pages.

.

.

Carry on gentlemen.

 

[mcatrophy]

...Anybody know how the AE functions in regard to this question? It seems unlikely that there is any preload, and I'm thinking (without really knowing anything) that the clutch just unloads a little when I shift in either direction, and I'm unaware of any pattern of AE transmission issues. I suspect that if you're just being reasonable about shifting, i.e. not thrashing the gears without backing off the throttle a little, then you're not going to hurt the FJR's transmission no matter how you shift.

The AE (or AS this side of the pond) makes a "classic" change, it pulls the clutch right in, shifts (no preload), then lets the clutch out. It can do this very quickly.

In the GenII's case, it's up to the rider to deal with the throttle. You can make it nice by a suitably timed momentary decrease or increase of your throttle, or you can just leave the throttle as is.

Time the throttle movement just right, you get a seamless change, no gearbox noise (though you can usually hear the clutch and gearbox actuators), as good as (or better than?) any manual change. Get the throttle timing wrong, you can get a herky-jerky shift, with a bit of a clunk from the box. But I don't believe any damage is done, the shift won't occur until the clutch is disengaged (so the gearbox is unloaded), and the clutch won't re-engage fully until the revs are about right.

If the revs are too low, the clutch will partially engage to pull the engine revs up, if too high it will reduce the engine power a bit (retards the ignition timing?) and partially engage the clutch to try to marry the engine and gearbox speeds. There is never a speed jerk due to the clutch engaging too quickly, the normally bad habit of changing gear in a corner doesn't cause a problem (unless you are already at 10/10ths).

The GenIII (not available in the US) controls the throttle for you. Its change is consistently good, probably not quite as good as with a perfectly timed throttle movement on a GenII (FWIW I did some comparisons here). You can make a jerky change by inappropriately moving the throttle, but not bad for the gearbox.

Off-hand, I am not aware of any YCC-S bike with bent or worn shift forks (or any other gearbox issue for that matter). Some cases of an actuator mount failing on early bikes, but that was fixed. Both flavours can suffer from a sticking clutch.

 

[mcatrophy]

I find myself, an old guy, kinda following Old Guys method. I have made clutchless shifts from time to time but I prefer fanning the clutch. I'm still having mixed results in getting a smooth shift from N into 1st. I've tried pumping the clutch, blipping the throttle and then shift, and holding the clutch for count of three before going into first. The results are mixed regardless of the method used. I hate the nasty clunk.

All FJRs seem to be a bit clunky.

Maybe, just maybe, you have a sticky clutch? Not as common on a GenIII, but perhaps you are unlucky.

Obvious symptom: as you come to rest, pull the clutch lever in just above engine tick-over speed, does the bike seem to continue pulling a bit? Or, if you have engine off in 1st, pull the clutch then start the engine, does it try to pull forward?

 

[Old Guy]

I find myself, an old guy, kinda following Old Guys method. I have made clutchless shifts from time to time but I prefer fanning the clutch. I'm still having mixed results in getting a smooth shift from N into 1st. I've tried pumping the clutch, blipping the throttle and then shift, and holding the clutch for count of three before going into first. The results are mixed regardless of the method used. I hate the nasty clunk.

I've been on here bragging that mine will slip right into low from neutral with barely a click. Then the next time I did it it sounded like something had broken

Most of the time it barely clicks, though.

 

[Old Guy]

I appreciate the fact that some guys love to talk about this stuff. I am not one of them, but in the spirit of tolerance, understanding and gained knowledge, I read the whole 4 pages. . . Carry on gentlemen.

I love talking about all aspects of motorcycling. As a matter of fact, I can meet someone, even someone with no interest in them whatsoever, and within minutes I'll find myself talking about motorcycles. I probably leave some of them wondering what the heck just happened.

 

[RadioHowie]

...deleted...

 

[wheatonFJR]

I shift 55 times a minute...

 

[Old Guy]

I shift 55 times a minute...

I wasn't aware that CVTs were available for FJRs

 

[mcatrophy]

I shift 55 times a minute...

(Apologies for slow loading of the movie linked to below, I'm working on speeding it up. Play from 9 seconds in for the best bit.)

 

[stealth1]

Tired of reading.

I think I'll go out and shift some.

Since we didn't get winter this year I may as well go ride.

I think I shift medium.