Linked and ABS Equipped Motorcycles

Since this topic has sorta been drug-up again elsewhere...

Doubt the benefits of linked brakes or ABS on street bikes? This poor chap wouldn't be in the hospital tonight had his bike been so equipped, IMO. Here's the scenario: This ZX10 rider goes by our parked group at a sane speed, waves a friendly hello while coming round the corner. Gets on the gas and gets off his line. Dunno why, maybe we distracted him, sun was in his eyes, looking at the view - who knows? But he does what 99% of us would do - stab the brakes, lock the rear, slide sideways, let off the rear brake and high-sides his way into a hospital bed. Yes, the destroyed bike photos are for effect.

















I'm still spooked over this. Having to call 911 with 'motorcyclist down, send E-units', sucks. It truly does. (The rider, 'Javier', was clearly an experienced rider in his mid to late 30's. Full leathers, boots, gloves, helmet - all top notch equipment.) Not to mention the cost and tying up of the medi-vac helo, the ambulance, the fire unit, the forest service, the CHP, the hospital costs and on and on... This technology works, I can't figger out why it gets pooh-poohed all the time...

By the way, this accident occurred minutes after one of our group braked his new HD on a sanded corner, stood it up and lost road space and into the ditch he went. Bashed his shoulder pretty good and toasted the bike to the tune of 5 or 6 grand. Again, ABS may have saved this from happening, too.

'I can out brake/think/perform linked/ABS brakes anytime.' Yeah, right. Horsecock.

(Author's note: Lack of smiley use is wholly intentional.)

I am inclined to agree with you on this one. Maybe the best of the best can do better, but for the rest of us geekwads in the real world with all its distractions, doubts, and second-guesses, I wish I had the ABS.

Scab said:

I am inclined to agree with you on this one. Maybe the best of the best can do better, but for the rest of us geekwads in the real world with all its distractions, doubts, and second-guesses, I wish I had the ABS.

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Yup...anyone can make a mistake with the brakes and it only takes one mistake. ABS takes some types of mistakes out of the realm of possibility. Why not?

Good you were able to get him help fast!

I haven't seen the ratio of 'ABS caused the accident' to 'ABS minimized or prevented the accident' but I would take a wild guess and expect ABS has saved tons of personal and very dear bacon as opposed to frying the bacon

Well,

Therein lies the issue...

So far, there has not been ONE single, solitary study that has shown riders on bikes with ABS are in any way safer or crash less. In fact, in the only studies done where determination was made as whether a bike had ABS or not, ABS-equipped bikes crashed just as often, and had just as high of injury and fatality rates as non-ABS bikes.

Look folks, I am not doubting for one moment that ABS has certain advantages, in certain situations, for beginning or more casual riders, but...

Therein lies the rub... If you have a bike with ABS it is impossible to practice threshold braking technique, and learn how the bike reacts when wheel lock-up occurs. IMHO, riders should know how this feels, and how to deal with it. Further, if a rider never learns proper braking technique, and how to control a panic stop without ABS, what happens if the ABS system fails or has a fault and isn't operating, and just for fun, let's say the rider is 600 miles from home and his dealer... And the typical SUV soccer Mom on her cell phone pulls right out in front?

Some like ABS, and that's fine. I have no problem with that, and I am not going to call anybody an idiot, or insult them in any way for preferring ABS. But ABS is not for everybody. It robs brake feel, pumps up and pulsates the lever when it engages, engages too early for my taste, and can cause some havoc on certain surfaces like gravel roads just to name one...

I'm not asking anybody here to *hate* ABS, or even remotely suggesting that they should remove or disable it. I only mentioned that I didn't like it on my FJR, and if I can do so with other side effects then I will disable it. I simply like having total control of the brakes myself, with no computer programmer half way around the world doing my thinking for me...

Kind of like Warchild wanting control of all eight pistons in the front calipers.

Maybe I am misreading something here, but I sort of thought we were all entitled to our own opinions and preferences. Is that true, or not?

And no offense, but I dislike linked brakes far more than even ABS...

Dallara

Dallara said:

Maybe I am misreading something here, but I sort of thought we were all entitled to our own opinions and preferences. Is that true, or not?

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It is true. All are entitled to read the various forum threads and take away what they want from the information presented.

I am certainly not anti-ABS; many will recall my first FJR was a '04 ABS model. If I could have scored another ABS model FJR, I would have. But my follow-on FJR was an '03 bike; Yamaha had no ABS models that year.

Linked brakes are another story......

The fact of the matter is, the LBS system on my Blackbird is quite unobtrusive and works quite well. This is most likely because Honda has extensive experience with it by now and it truthfully is a very refined system. Too, I'll point out that unlike the Yamaha system, the Honda's LBS system is truly a "linked" system - front and back - not just linked from the rear only as with '06 FJRs. Also, the two hydraulic systems on the LBS system are completely separate; the brakes are linked mechanically, not by hydraulics.

For those that are so inclined, the FJR's unified braking system looks easily defeatable.

But unless one is off-roading or constantly traveling down gravel roads, etc, I'm not seeing the overall logic in disabling the ABS system. However, that should be readily doable as well.... as others have mentioned, you can simply install a toggle switch that interrupts the sensor circuit on both wheels. If the resulting ABS warning light bugs you, you can always apply a tiny strip of electric tape over it. Or, leave the ABS warning light uncovered as a reminder that you purposely switched off the ABS, and when you return to asphalt, the light can prompt you to re-engage it....

80-10-10

The old 80% rule. 80% of the people reading the Forum (or any other scenario) fall within a common range of experience, outlook, attitude, etc. Then there are the 10 percenters that are over or under achievers who's outlook, experience and attitude pushes them outside the normal group in some way. Does that make them abnormal? Then there are the 10 percenters that are totally over the top or under the bottom :blink: These are the limit pushers.

When putting ideas and information out to the Forum I try to write and present for the 80% . For better or worse I have put out some 10% stuff. I try to present information or facts and let the readers take away what is important to them or draw their own conclusions.

[point]What you are presenting about ABS and LBS is factual but falls outside the 80%[/point] In the little incident that TWN started this thread with, I think the 80 percenters would be better served with TWN's take on ABS. Even though the rider was apparently well experienced it was the surprise of the situation that may have precipitated the Blue Cross/Blue Shield moment. With your background and experience you may not have caused the initiating event or may have recovered without incident. Many are not fortunate enough to have had all the training and track time needed to train the subconscious reactions. Then there is always the honest and simple mistake -- and it can only take just one and the game is over for keeps.

OK -

I'm gonna wade in here -

I'm a returning rider - 30 year hiatus - I now have about 1500 miles on Wonky.

I'm in that 80% - I don't push it, I have experience in riding (albeit 30 years past) and I can certainly tell you I have bad habits from when I was self-taught in the 60's. I did stupid things when I was learning, and by the grace of God, I survived them.

I've taken the MSF class, which I can tell you has ALREADY kept my stern off the pavement.

All I know is this - if ABS and linked brakes save me JUST ONCE from my own lack of experience - (and odds are they already have) I want them on my bike. Period.

I have a family I need to return to at the end of each ride. THIS is of PRIMARY importance.

Very well said, ionbeam. Ayuh, very well said. :good:

While I have been riding on and off for the past 30 years, I have never raced, never will race, and have rarely ever pushed a motorcycle to its mechanical limits. The FJR is a great bike but it will always have potential that is far beyond my ability. I ride for different reasons mabe, I don't know. It is not, nor ever has been a requirement that I "get all she can give" from any machine I have ever owned. Hell, ya'll are motorcyclists. You know what I am trying to pathetically say. It is the experience. It is different than anything else. It is me, the motorcycle, the world, and MY comfort zone. It is sanity. I ride for ME. And yes, I am all too human. I regularly make mistakes. I love technology. I love forgiveness. And yes, I am right smack dab in the middle of the 80%.

Bring me anything that will keep me riding another day.

ionbeam said:

These are the limit pushers.
Many are not fortunate enough to have had all the training and track time needed to train the subconscious reactions. Then there is always the honest and simple mistake -- and it can only take just one and the game is over for keeps.

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To take a qoute from one of the "experiencened", "trained" and "talented" riders with "track time" from the recent AMA at Barbers (sorry I don't recall which rider said it)

When asked by a reporter what happened when he crashed " Somewhere in the middle of the turn, I ran out of talent."

Yup.

All too similar to my situation almost a year ago. In my case, ABS would have saved me from my own stupidity. Had I had ABS, no rear lock-up, and no high-side. No $1000 insurance deductible. No FJR down for 45 days. No $2000 in medical bills, and no broken wrist which still is not 100%, and probably never will be.

My opinion: I don't care what even the 10% say. In the REAL world, riding on the street, ABS is a very good thing.

CLICKY HERE ON MOST EXCELLENT ABS ARTICLE

Strange how with all the Safety Systems in today's vehicles, ABS, seatbelts, Air Bags, Side Impact beams, Side impact curtains, crumple zones, We are still killing the same or more number of People????

"Liars figure, and figures lie."

That chart is misleading IMHO. There's a bunch more people around now compared to back then. So while the totals haven't changed much for the better, how about the death rates? How many more vehicles are on the road in 1999 vs. 1975? How many more miles being driven total?

For a chart that is at least in the ballpark, show me the death rate per 100,000 miles driven over that time span.

Not to discount the statistical information, but most statistics are misleading at best. It is extremely difficult to construct any kind of data gathering medium that will present good results. As Skooter noted, the population increase alone would actually show a per capita decrease in deaths. Another thing not shown is the growth of motorcycle riders per capita or the repeal of helmet laws, etc. We would have to have information that also seperated the motorcycle accidents due to operator error from the motorcycle accidents that were not attributable to the operator of the cycle. And so on, and so on.

Another thing that should be noted is that insurance companies are often the gathering house of many statistics. These people live and die by the numbers. In the cases with their information, I doubt seriously that any rider has ever called his/her respective insurance company and said: "Oh, by the way, these ABS brakes just saved my hide and your checkbook from a dumb-ass mistake I made today while riding..."

So, in actuallity, the numbers saved by ABS may not even be a measureable number. I just don't see how you could obtain acurate real-world figures from what "could have happened, but didn't".

OTH, the insurance companies own data does show a decrease in accidents and fatalities with ABS vs. non-ABS equiped automobiles.

And I am sure the same arguments for and against ABS can be made for automobiles. But I also think that history is showing this to be an advantage for the AVERAGE driver. Why should it prove otherwise on a bike?

Even with Population growth and miles travelled it's still not to impressive.....



Considering the quality of the Highways back in 66, the quality of tires, suspension systems etc, reducing the ratio by 4 per 1,000,000 miles travelled over a 30 yr period.

I'm gonna weigh in too ... as I was an ABS "doubter" / brake snob prior to my 06 FJR arrival.

35 years of riding, the first 15 years in motocross and the last 8 in road racing. Lucky enough to have ridden the rubber off several TZs back in the day. I was never a great racer, but competent.

That said, I am certain that on a perfect day, when my mind is 100% on task, that I can out perform any ABS system, and fully embarass any concept of brake-linking employed on any bike. However, age has done wonders for me. I realize that I am rarely operating at a 100% attention level. Even more rare is the perfect day. Hate to admit it, really I do. I'm sure my pillion appreciates this admission. We both appreciate that I am no doubt a better prepared rider with ABS, and we are both safer in most situations.

The ABS and linked brakes work damn well on this FJR. I suspect they work as well on all brands/models so equipped, regardless of the specific technology used. I won't be fooling around with them.

Bearly Flying said:

Even with Population growth and miles travelled it's still not to impressive.....

Considering the quality of the Highways back in 66, the quality of tires, suspension systems etc, reducing the ratio by 4 per 1,000,000 miles travelled over a 30 yr period.

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Am I reading this chart right?

Deaths per 100,000 people went from about 27 in 1966, down to just over 3?

Deaths per 100 million miles went from about 28 in 1966, down to less than 2?

If I am reading that right, I am impressed.

No: for the Population you stay on the left scale. Deaths went from 27 down to 17

For Milage travelled use the right scale: 5.5 down to 1.7.

When you look at all the other variables, highway construction, slope on ditches, Way more interstates, Primary hiways and paved secondaries, improved signage. Improvements in vehicles, tires, lighting. And yes ABS may help, but all I'm pointing out is there is still a whole wack of people still being killed in their ABS equipped vehicles. It may help, but it is not the Be All End All.