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Rogue

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I'm going to install my Dale Walker Header this weekend and do a coolant flush (Blow Job).

I know there were rumours of automotive coolant damaging bike water pumps a few years ago, so what brand coolant do you use?

 
I use Engine Ice. After assembling distilled water, non-silicate anti-freeze, and water wetter, and playing Chemistry 101 (made sure I did the mixing silhouetted in a window so as to keep the neighbors unsettled) last year, and realizing absolutely no improvement in heat output or slower bar climb (not that I really expected much), I said screw it and went with a scoot specific high quality coolant, and just poured it in (after giving Frank the blow job of his life). Oh, and it's blue........... :D

 
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I think as long as you use a motorcycle-specific product, you'll be OK. I use Motorex because that's what my local dealer has.

 
At the risk of being flamed, I backed away from the Havoline. While my bike was in for the first tick repair there was all kinds of white residue caked on in parts of my engine that did not look good. Had everything cleaned out where possible and switched out to what you see below.

A friend who is an aircraft maintenance inspector and owns a radiator/air conditioning business advised against putting this in my bike. He has seen the Havoline eat through aluminum engine parts in under 30K miles.YMMV

08C50-C321S01_large.jpg


 
I run engine Ice in my bikes as well. Its not because I think it's the cats ass or because I think its going to drop my operating temp, but because tracks around here don't allow ethylene glycol based coolants. They recommend distilled water and water wetter, engine ice, or Evans NPG. Since I had the CBR before the FJR that's what I started running. Its a little pricey, but I've used it and it works, so I continue to use it.

 
Is the "Engine Ice" of which you speak the same stuff I have seen at the auto-parts store?

 
Is the "Engine Ice" of which you speak the same stuff I have seen at the auto-parts store?
Haven't seen it at auto parts houses-it's pretty spendy for car capacity, I've only seen it at scooter stores.

PU_81081100-2T.jpg


 
I run engine Ice in my bikes as well. Its not because I think it's the cats ass or because I think its going to drop my operating temp, but because tracks around here don't allow ethylene glycol based coolants. They recommend distilled water and water wetter, engine ice, or Evans NPG. Since I had the CBR before the FJR that's what I started running. Its a little pricey, but I've used it and it works, so I continue to use it.

+1 Agree with the glycol based coolants, even joked about getting stranded out in the desert, at least you have backup liquids...the rest you can imagine

 
This is like oil. I know of at least four schools of thought:

1. Motorcycle-specific coolants are like motorcycle-specific oils - completely not necessary. Use any quality coolant you like, it will work fine if you change it every year or two. And this silica vs. non-silica thing is overblown too. It doesn't matter.

2. Okay to use auto coolant, but make sure it's non-silica and conventional ethylene glycol, not organic acid/Dexcool. This may be tricky to find because most non-silica formulations are OA/Dexcool. I've heard one of the Zerex brands fills this bill.

3. Go to organic acid/Dexcool chemistry like Prestone yellow long-life 5/500. It's the wave of the future and lasts much longer than EG. Just be sure to do a good flush - all the problems reported with Dexcool are because people didn't do a good flush of the EG stuff that's in there from the factory.

4. Go ultra-conservative and use the motorcycle-specific EG stuff. A completely safe choice is the Hondaline coolant.

In the past I've gone with both #3 and #4, but I think the Hondaline coolant is good stuff and isn't very expensive for the small quantities in a motorcycle that are only needed every couple years, so I've been using it lately. I'm not a believer in Engine Ice, although I do use Water Wetter in a track bike that is running straight water.

- Mark

 
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Just to clearify something....most all the engine coolant you see on the shelf anywhere is ethyleneglycol. DexCool, the "one for all" Prestone, etc.... They are ALL ethylene glycol. Ethyleneglycol is the coolant. The silicates or OA or DexCool refer to the corrosion inhibitor in the coolant, not the coolant type.

The only exception to this is the "Sierra" brand of non-toxic coolant or the other non-toxic and lo-tox coolants that others have jumped on the band wagon to have something to counter the Sierra marketing blitz. Sierra and all the no/lo-tox coolants are propyleneglycol, not ethyleneglycol. As far as I know there are only silicated PG coolants on the market, no long life OA versions.

There are only three types of coolants out there....ethyleneglycol, proplyleneglycol and plain water with some sort of corrosion inhibitor/wetter additive.

Coolant has two components. One is the basic coolant that provides the anti-freeze and anti-boil protection. This is what the ethyleneglycol does. The coolant in the jug is about 99% ethyelenglycol. The second componenet is the corrosion inhibitor system in the coolant. There are many types of corrosion inhibitors but basically what is available on the shelf today in the automotive/motorcycle section is a silicated corrosion inhibitor package or an organic acid based corrosion inhibitor. The "corrosion inhibitor" additive is only a very small part by volume of the coolant.

The coolant does three extremely important things. One, it prevents freezing (not such a big deal on motorcycles...) Two, it prevents boiling or raises the boiling point of the cooling system considerably. Three, it prevent corrosion of the internal engine cooling system parts. Aluminum engines, especially aluminum cyliner heads, are extremely prone to corrosion. Iron engines rust and turn the system red. Eventually the rust can clog the radiator but that is about all that will happen. Aluminum engines demonstrate a very undesireably phenomenon called hot transport deposition corrosion. In short, the aluminum around the exhaust ports (high heat areas) flakes away in microscopic bits, travels in solution in the coolant and plates out in the low temp areas. This results in a radiator full of aluminum and cracked exhaust port walls/cylinder heads.

You MUST run coolant with an adequate corrosion inhibitor package in an aluminum engine. Whether it is EG or PG it must have an adequate corrosion inhibitor for aluminum engines.

Silicated coolants or the organic acid based corrosion ihibitors such as DexCool will all provide adequate corrosion protection. The ONLY difference in corrosion protection is that the silicated packages need to be replaced every two to three years and the DexCool will basically last forever and can easily be run for 4 or 5 years or more with little concern.

You really want to use an ethyleneglycol coolant, not propyleneglycol. PG is more viscous than EG and thus slows coolant flow and hurt the efficiency of the cooling system. If max cooling capacity is your goal then EG is the answer. EG also has a greater heat carry capacity (specific heat) than PG which also makes it a more efficient coolant.

You really do NOT want to run plain water in an aluminum engine. Period. I know some tracks require it and if it is only on the track for short periods of time the engine will probably survive but you do NOT want plain water in the system for long periods of time. Corrosion and engine damage will result and the system will easily overheat due to premature boiling.

"Water wetter" and similar products help slightly when used in track systems that are plain water. They are useless in a system with properly mixed 50/50 ethyleneglycol/distilled water.

Understand that plain water boils at 212 F. In a cooling system that is pressurized with a 14 PSI cap and is running 50/50 EG/distilled water the coolant will not boil until 265 F. This is a huge margin in cooling performance that the coolant provides.

While it is true that the "best" coolant is plain water due to the lower viscosity of water and the very high specific heat of plain water using plain water for better cooling performance is very misguided. It obviously provides no corrosion protection. It will also boil at much lower temps without the EG. Inside the engine, directly in contact with the exhaust port walls, the plain water would boil locally, cause bubbles and steam pockets and drastically hurt the cooling system performance. The higher viscosity of the EG and the lower specific heat of EG, while theoretically reducing the "effectiveness" of the cooling sytsem actually improve it's performance significantly by raising the boiling point and eliminating localized boiling in addition to preveiting freezing and preventing corrosion (if the proper corrosion inhibitors are used.)

Why is anyone worried about using a silicated coolant in the FJR?? I haven't seen anything regarding use of a non-silicated coolant anywhere. Silicated coolants provide excellent corrosion protection, are readily available and don't hurt a thing.

The organic acid corrosion protection technology in DexCool and the other copycat long life coolants is also excellent but there are two concerns with switching to it. One is that one the system is filled and run with silicated coolant the use of DexCool is pretty pointless as the silicates that plate the inside of the cooling system cannot be removed and will contaminate the DexCool and pretty much neuter it's long life capability. Secondly, not all cooling systems are designed for OA coolants. There are rare cases where the heat exchangers have had problems with OA coolants. I don't know if the FJR rad is susceptable to OA damage but I wouldn't run the test on my bike.... Cooling wise, there is absolutely nothing to gain with DexCool....just long life corrosion protection. Which is what you get if you use silicated coolants and change or refresh them every few years.

BTW....I use the Havoline conventional silicated coolant in my FJR. Texaco/Havoline is one of the best coolants available as they are the OEM coolant suppliers for many of the auto companies and they developed the DexCool formula in conjunction with GM. They know coolants and do their own development, refining and blending. Not that other coolants won't work but the Havoline line of coolants are excellent.

 
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thanks jestal -- im research prone -- and you save me the trouble.

So -- Dexcool? (easy to find too)

 
the only reason I know of for not using silica type antifreeze is that several years ago Honda Goldwings and Valkyries had problems with seeping from the water pump. The claim by Honda was that it was caused by this type of antifreeze and they had a service bulletin out to this effect.

Of course - the recommend Honda coolant.

I had a Valkyrie at the time - so that is why I was concerned. Never had a problem and only drained the coolant once - using Honda product.

don't know if the warning was Mother Honda trying to absolve themselves of a problem, but there was a warning in Motorcycle Consumer News about not using this type of coolant.

How this gets translated over to FJR's; I don't know.

 
the only reason I know of for not using silica type antifreeze is that several years ago Honda Goldwings and Valkyries had problems with seeping from the water pump. The claim by Honda was that it was caused by this type of antifreeze and they had a service bulletin out to this effect.
Of course - the recommend Honda coolant.

I had a Valkyrie at the time - so that is why I was concerned. Never had a problem and only drained the coolant once - using Honda product.

don't know if the warning was Mother Honda trying to absolve themselves of a problem, but there was a warning in Motorcycle Consumer News about not using this type of coolant.

How this gets translated over to FJR's; I don't know.
Me neither, these things tend to take on a life all their own what with the internet etc. Yami manual states

Recommended antifreezeHigh-quality ethylene glycol antifreeze containing corrosion inhibitors for aluminum engines
No more, no less.

 
The coolants with silicates can theoretically cause problems with water pump seals due to the abrasive nature of the silicates. That is about the only negative that I know of with silicated coolants....other than they have to be replaced frequently.

Water pump seals are face seals that rely on the surface tension of the liquid basically to seal. There is generally some sort of cermic disk that rotates against a bronze or brass surface forming the seal. The coolant wicks into the surface, wetting it and the surface tension of the liquid prevents leakage. All water pump seals will seep very very slightly so there is usualy a drip cup or other provisions for tiny drops of coolant to sit and evaporate instead of presenting themselves as a "leak".

If the water pump seal surface is contamintaed by silicates it will start leaking due to the silicate buildup upsetting the water pump seal surface and cuasing a larger gap than the surface tension of the liquid can seal. So...technically silicated coolants will cause water pump seal failures. It is a statistical type of thing. If you take 100,000 engines and fill them with silicated coolant and another 100,000 and fill them with DexCool (non-silicated OA corrosion inhibitor) the silicated coolant engines might loose 150 water pump seals and the DexCool engines might loose 25 water pump seals. Not the sort of thing that guarantees you will or won't have a water pump seal failure but it does show up in warranty when you are looking at millions of engines in the field.

The problem is that there are different levels of silicates in coolant. Automotive coolant that is generally advertised for "aluminum engines" will have a certain level of silicates. Stop at a truck stop and buy "heavy duty", "long life" silicated coolant meant for class 8 diesels and it will have 4 times the silicate level. Put that diesel, heavy duty coolant in your FJR and the odds of you having a water pump seal failure increase astronomically. Depending on what sort of silicated coolant people were getting or the relative level of silicates in the coolant being used it could possibly have caused a water pump seal seepage problem. As usual, there is likely some sort of fact behind the old wives tale out there but it certainly does NOT condemn all silicated coolants or indicate that you shouldn't use one. Just use the correct coolant for the application.

Silicates also tend to fall out of suspension in the coolant as it ages or sits unused. Leave the engine parked for several years and you will find green jello inside. That is the silicate precipitating out. Usually the stuff will start to flow and work OK when the engine is started but it is one of the reasons why you want to always maintain a cooling system filled with silicated coolant by refreshing it frequently.

DexCool was developed to provide long life corrosion protection with aluminum engines due to the customer's reluctance to change the coolant occasionally. In addition to providing long life corrosion protection the DexCool is much easier on water pump seals over the long haul due to the lack of silicates. It also will not turn to green jello when left unused for long periods of time.

DexCool seems the obvious choice for the FJR but I hesitate to recommend it as I have never seen any testing of OA coolant in the FJR heat exchanger so I do NOT know that it is compatible with OA corrosion inhibitors. I use silicated Havoline conventional green coolant in mine. Changing it occasionally is not that big of a deal. Besides, like I said above, one the engine/cooling system is run with silicated coolant you loose the long life capability of the DexCool to some extent due to the silicate contamination. It appears to me that the factory fill Yamaha coolant is silicated green coolant so switching to DexCool is pretty much pointless since you do not get any better cooling or corrosion protection and you still need to change it every 2-3 years. Water pump seal life might be a tiny bit better over the whole vehicle fleet but I doubt that any single individual would be better off for water pump seal life by using DexCool. Once again, it is great stuff and I am not saying don't use it....I just cannot recommend it not knowing the alloy of the heat exchanger and do not think it provides any real advantage in this situation.

 
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Okay, Jestal, you are obviously one of our most respected and most knowledgeable members. But, just for 'shits-n-grins' how about a post one time that just said something like: "yep".

I think it would freak the living crap out of everyone here. We would speak of it for years to come.

 
Okay, Jestal, you are obviously one of our most respected and most knowledgeable members. But, just for 'shits-n-grins' how about a post one time that just said something like: "yep".I think it would freak the living crap out of everyone here. We would speak of it for years to come.




OK

 
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