PC III Maps

[Kromm]

I don't know if these will work, But here is a try at the PC III maps I have saved.

Wally's Holeshot Map

Holeshot (Dale's) Map

Useless Pickles Smoothnes map

Wally's Smoothness Map

 

[Fred W]

It is important to tell folks what generation bike these are for. I assume it is second gen since that's what your bike is?

 

[Kromm]

Sorry, Yes I believe these are for the Gen II.

I had a custom map made for mine. But these were the ones I was looking at before I had the custom one made.

 

[mavrik]

most of the maps when opened will tell you, at the bottom, what year or gen bike it is for...i have a few that you don't have but, to be honest, the only thing i don't like about this site is the uneasiness of uploading a file or picture. I have been on a ton of other sites and it is never this hard even with larger sites then this...sorry for the rant.

 

[Fred W]

If by "this site" you are talking about the FJR Forum, then you are wrong. It isn't difficult to upload files here. It is not even possible.

The site owners here decided early on that they did not want to spend the money to host other peoples stuff. So no file uploads of any kind. No pictures, no videos, no GPS routes, no Power Commander maps, nothing but the forum itself, and of course you are free to link to files hosted elsewhere to your heart's content.

Personally, I'm 100% OK with that. There are lots of other places to host your files, either for free, as a part of your ISP's package, or on a subscription basis. Considering that this forum is provided 100% free of charge, and that there is none of the usual constant spammy advertisements to put up with, I'll take that small limitation quite gladly.

 

[Ignacio]

..... the only thing i don't like about this site is the uneasiness of uploading a file or picture.

If by "this site" you are talking about the FJR Forum, then you are wrong. It isn't difficult to upload files here. It is not even possible.

The site owners here decided early on.....

I really hate it when Fred W says it better and more completely than I can. I particularly like the reminder about this site having no commercial sponsors and being ad free.

The only thing I'd add is that it's also a bit so we don't have to be copyright cops as much, it makes security a bit easier, and we're purposely not like other forums on a variety of points.

I note one of the bonuses is that a large number of people learn and contribute to the bonus weblife skill of linking to hosted images.

 

[mavrik]

..... the only thing i don't like about this site is the uneasiness of uploading a file or picture.

If by "this site" you are talking about the FJR Forum, then you are wrong. It isn't difficult to upload files here. It is not even possible.

The site owners here decided early on.....

I really hate it when Fred W says it better and more completely than I can. I particularly like the reminder about this site having no commercial sponsors and being ad free.

The only thing I'd add is that it's also a bit so we don't have to be copyright cops as much, it makes security a bit easier, and we're purposely not like other forums on a variety of points.

I note one of the bonuses is that a large number of people learn and contribute to the bonus weblife skill of linking to hosted images.

Fred...i do appreciate the different way you have looked at it....and with it explained that way i totally understand and i can see the positive points of it...thanks for the clarity...i will try to learn to host pics somewhere else and then bring them in....new for me but i will try...even just to show my bike off.

Ignacio...no offense meant towards you ...i get what your saying, i will learn and try the different way....and yes i do like this site so far, quite a bit and some of the great people that i have met and dealt with in a short time...

 

[ajpagosa]

Hi Folks,

Newb here, been reading up on the various PCIII maps for Gen 2, are either of the two posted in this thread the same as the Wally's Holeshot combo map discussed here:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=20575&st=0

None of the links in that thread work.

What I am looking for is a smoothness map with better top end but also for slip-ons (if that makes sense). I understand there is a map on the dynojet website for 2 Bothers Vale slip-ons + O2 sensor disconnected.

That brings up a second question. There is another map on the Dynojet site for German/euro stock bike with O2 simulator in place. You look at the maps and compare basic stock map to German map and they are pretty different. I have just installed the O2 simulator (just two resistors in a plug that goes into the empty O2 harness on the ECU side). My bike at present is 100% stock except for PCIII running standard map (not map 0). The O2 plug really woke it up, bunch more TQ and smoothness. Still has a bit of sticky/jerky throttle and some stumbling at cold idle. FWIW my bike has the altitude fix ecu.

Anyway my other Q is, has anyone run the O2 simulator plug on the various smoothness maps or their variants? And does anyone understand what is going on inside the ECU when this is plugged in vs. when it is not?

I have ordered the slip-ons they are not here yet, I may try the smoothness maps with the O2 sensor plug in place first and report back. Really pleased with what the plug did vs just disconnected O2 sensor alone, but it feels like there's more there. TIA.

edit: the reason I wanted to try the plug was there was some talk elsewhere about the ECU going into some lean adaptation mode when it senses an open circuit at the O2 sensor. The plug fixes that though how and to what effect I do not know. Anyway there was some speculation that the PCIII could not hit intended target fuel trim values if there was no plug in place, something that was NOT apparent at the time most of these maps were made.

 

[Kromm]

Hi Folks,

Newb here, been reading up on the various PCIII maps for Gen 2, are either of the two posted in this thread the same as the Wally's Holeshot combo map discussed here:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=20575&st=0

Yes I believe they are the same maps

 

[ajpagosa]

Hi Folks,

Newb here, been reading up on the various PCIII maps for Gen 2, are either of the two posted in this thread the same as the Wally's Holeshot combo map discussed here:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=20575&st=0

Yes I believe they are the same maps

OK thanks, I will try one tomorrow. My slip-ons just arrived so those will go on next. Will report back here with some subjective impressions.

 

[Chuck35]

edit: the reason I wanted to try the plug was there was some talk elsewhere about the ECU going into some lean adaptation mode when it senses an open circuit at the O2 sensor. The plug fixes that though how and to what effect I do not know. Anyway there was some speculation that the PCIII could not hit intended target fuel trim values if there was no plug in place, something that was NOT apparent at the time most of these maps were made.

Do you happen to have a link for the plug?

 

[ajpagosa]

edit: the reason I wanted to try the plug was there was some talk elsewhere about the ECU going into some lean adaptation mode when it senses an open circuit at the O2 sensor. The plug fixes that though how and to what effect I do not know. Anyway there was some speculation that the PCIII could not hit intended target fuel trim values if there was no plug in place, something that was NOT apparent at the time most of these maps were made.

Do you happen to have a link for the plug?

Sure, this was the best price I found, there is very little documentation on Dynojet or anyone else's website about these, possibly because the PCIII is discontinued in favor of the PCV.

https://www.powersportsuperstore.com/Dynojet-Research-Oxygen-Sensor-Eliminator-76423007-p/4133320.htm

You want this exact part number:

764230007

FWIW I was led to this issue while setting up/running/debugging a PCIII wideband on a BMW R1150GSA. That N-alpha system cannot run without an O2 sensor, but the cool thing is running a wideband PCIII on it you can program the target AFR (say to 13.8) and it runs closed loop most of the time. Immense improvement. I got to wondering about PCIII on my other bike and just what the disconnected O2 sensor was doing (or not) & stumbled across some discussion of lean adaptations to no sensor condition defeating some of the PCIII's trim table adjustments.

 

[Chiefblueman]

Was wondering if this plug would work for me, then remembered I have a Gen1. Doh!

 

[Chuck35]

Sure, this was the best price I found, there is very little documentation on Dynojet or anyone else's website about these, possibly because the PCIII is discontinued in favor of the PCV.

https://www.powersportsuperstore.com/Dynojet-Research-Oxygen-Sensor-Eliminator-76423007-p/4133320.htm

You want this exact part number:

764230007

Thanks

 

[LAF]

Sure, this was the best price I found, there is very little documentation on Dynojet or anyone else's website about these, possibly because the PCIII is discontinued in favor of the PCV.

https://www.powersportsuperstore.com/Dynojet-Research-Oxygen-Sensor-Eliminator-76423007-p/4133320.htm

You want this exact part number:

764230007

Thanks

Interesting piece.

Wondering what it is doing and if the PC V could use this?

I know we all say it throws no codes with the O2 disconnected, but is that the whole story?

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts.

 

[Fred W]

On the first gen, I believe that he ECU code is pretty primitive. When you disconnect the O2 sensor it doesn't know it (no codes) and the Fuel Injection just stays in open loop mode continuously. It still runs the same base map and goes through the normal warm-up routine, just never goes closed loop.

Second gens (and later) may be different since they have O2 sensor heaters, the ECU could expect them to come to temp in XX minutes. But from everything I have heard this isn't the case. IOW I think they are still unaffected by the disconnected O2.

I'd welcome some evidence to the contrary.

 

[ajpagosa]

On the first gen, I believe that he ECU code is pretty primitive. When you disconnect the O2 sensor it doesn't know it (no codes) and the Fuel Injection just stays in open loop mode continuously. It still runs the same base map and goes through the normal warm-up routine, just never goes closed loop.

Second gens (and later) may be different since they have O2 sensor heaters, the ECU could expect them to come to temp in XX minutes. But from everything I have heard this isn't the case. IOW I think they are still unaffected by the disconnected O2.

I'd welcome some evidence to the contrary.

Well without something like an LC1 installed it would be hard. I know mine felt better (stronger in low-mid rpms and throatier sounding, + better throttle response) with it installed back to back. If you do a map compare on the dynojet maps for base M419-001 (stock O2 sensor disconnected) and M419-502 (stock german model O2 sensor disconnected O2 sensor eliminator installed), from 40% throttle on they are nearly identical but under that they different (001 adds a lot more fuel). So sticking the plug in and running 001, it would run more fuel than 001 without the plug and roughly look like a Wally smoothness map from what I can tell. Assuming German ECU is basically the same.

However based on what I learned working on the GS BMW there are a host of other things besides just AFR-related fueling that the O2 sensor plays a role in, for example ECU constantly oscillates mixture +/- 5-10% to cycle the cat and heat it up. It senses base state and adapts to 10% ethanol gas or not, winter gas vs summer gas or not etc. This is not just on bosch motronic ECU's, at least that is my understanding. So I have come to the view that the best set up to have is a wideband ECU in place (that you can program target AFR's) and then still have all the adaptive control logic functioning going on for gas variations etc. That is not possible with the PCIII as it stands but it is with the PCV. But that is expensive with all the add-ons (auto tune etc.)

Anyway I wanted to get the PCIII I have running as well as it can. But to be honest I have no idea what is going on inside its ECU when the O2 sensor is disconnected or what state the system gets sent to when an open circuit is detected. At some point I may get an LC1 just for data acq purposes and measure but my riding window is closing for the season in a week or two.

 

[Fred W]

Any engine that utilizes a precat O2 sensor behaves pretty much the way that you described it. The O2 signal cycles at about a 1-2 second rate. I've never heard a theory that this is to allow the cat to operate better. I'd always understood that it has more to do with the hysteresis in the system than any intentional design feature.

The output of an O2 sensor is a voltage, not a resistance. The sensor itself generates a small voltage (after heating up) with no external power source that is proportional to the difference in O2 levels between the hot exhaust stream and the outside air. That said, I don't really see what these resistor widgets could do for you, unless they are also tapping off the heater voltage (which 1st gens do not have), and the resistors are a voltage divider to provide ~ +5V to the ECU. +5V would tell the ECU that the current injection is producing a perfect stoichiometric ratio. How that would differ from telling the ECU you don't have an O2 sensor signal is anyone's guess.

In any case, unplugging the sensor will not enrich the fuel mixture any time except when the FI previously would have gone closed loop. On the FJR fuel injection system, the only times the ECU will attempt to go closed loop is during idle, or during a very steady cruise state, with low, non-varying throttle and a low load. The entire rest of the time the ECU will run in open loop mode regardless of if there is (or is not) an O2 sensor installed. How one would be able to feel an improved tune state by plugging or unplugging an O2 sensor (or sensor eliminator) is questionable.

My hypothesis is that the Euro ECUs may have a firmware feature that others do not, and they may throw a CEL if the O2 is disconnected. There have been some reports of this happening on 2nd Gen FJRs, but we never correlated that with what country the bikes were in. The resistor packs may fool the ECU into believing that the O2 is out there, even though there is no actual feedback. Automotive fuekl injection computers are far more advanced and actually sense a lack of activity (that slow cyclic variation around +5V that you mentioned earlier) and will throw a CEL for that alone, even if the voltage is within the "normal" range.

The European ECUs may also have significantly richer fueling (by default) than the North American ones, since they do not have to pass EPA or CARB emissions testing. Different regional ruling bodies have different criteria on the conditions for emissions measurement and the acceptable levels. So it's quite likely we get different stock fuel maps by region, which would also explain the difference in Power Commander's correction maps.

My understanding is that when using a PCV with the wideband O2 sensor (aka an A/F Ratio Sensor), the signal from the sensor is sent only to the PCV unit and not to the bike's ECU. So the ECU runs as if there was no O2 sensor, always in open loop mode. The A/F Ratio Sensor signal is used in combination with the Throttle position sensor signal and RPM signal to calculate a custom PCV map for optimum fueling. From what I can tell, it does not appear to adjust the fueling at anything approaching real-time the way the stock O2 sensor does, so it may not do all that you had hoped in regard to adjusting fueling for environmental conditions or fuel oxygenates (ethanol).

That said, I am in agreement that the best set-up available is the PCV with Autotune and A/F sensor in lieu of the stock O2 sensor, as the stock fueling has definite room for improvement.

 

[ajpagosa]

Well based on direct prior experience, it is safe to say almost no one outside of OEM firmware programmers knows WTF is going on inside that ECU. Perhaps that even includes Dynojet engineers, I don't know. I was very surprised to find all the additional things going on that relied on an O2 sensor inside the Bosch Motronic for the model year 2002. These are the slow(er) global adaptations to fuel type for example, that use O2 sensor input even in the non-closed loop sections of the map. On the BMW at least you can reset these ECU adaptations, it really makes a difference. Perhaps on our bikes you can disconnect battery to reset ECU and start fresh each time. The adaptations can mask a lot of what is going on.

As far as the O2 sensor, yes it produces a voltage, that is how they work (via chemical reaction). But my understanding is that basic voltage signal needs some signal conditioning and voltage offset so perhaps the proper resistor sends a conditioned constant voltage signal back to the ECU, whereas an open circuit sends something else. Again no one knows but I am beginning to really want to find out.

My subjective impression was that plugging in the simulator changed things. I plan on repeating that test in reverse later this week. I also tried the M419-002 map (DJ 2 brothers O2 disconnected) after swapping 2 Bros cans in. Hated it. Terrible throttle response, jerky, stumbled badly, idled poorly. Top end was good at say above 60% throttle. Then I tried Wally's smoothness/Holeshot map. That was awesome, very smooth, monster power mid-high. I suspect it was running too rich as under load (going up steep hills) at mid-to-WOT it felt like it bogged a tiny bit. Never felt that kind of power out of the old FJR. You could almost see the gas gauge go down however. I also do not have holeshots (still have the cat) and if you do a map compare it really is very rich up mid-high throttle/RPM's where you'd expect a lot more air. Anyway the low-mid range improvement was outstanding, just super smooth. I will try uselss pickles smoothness and basic Wally's smoothness (no holeshot), settle on one map with the 2 Bros pipes, and then try removing the simulator plug to see what that does. Then probably shut it down for winter.

Situation here is somewhat difficult, high altitude (my house is at 8k ft), lots of elevation changes, and getting cold (high 40's low 50's mid day, tens low 20's at night)). Ordinarily this time of year we'd be snowed under, but that is on hold for at least a week or two more. So I can do more science.

There is an option here that I am considering, which is the Innovative Motorsports LC1 wideband but as a data acq tool to look into some of these "WTF is going on issues" on the FJR. This is a wideband sensor that has some electroncis you can get with it and you can use it to record many outputs as well as just AFR. SInce the old sensor is just sitting there doing nothing might as well take it out & get some good data. There is a guy over on the Advrider forum (Roger04rt) who hacked one of those into his Bosch system on a r1150rt, sort of a homemade wideband, and it spoofs the ECU with the wideband output into running whatever AFR target closed loop he wants. As I said earlier the bosch runs mostly closed loop on that engine (no MAF or AFM). I have an older PCIII wideband on my r1150gs that does the same thing (targets AFR but also adjust fuel trim tables RPM vs TPS), the improvement is massive. However the LC1 is mainly an excellent DA tool and maybe someone needs to do that on the FJR to thin out the speculation a little. We'll see if Santa maybe comes through on this. I had never heard of this hardware til I started reading roger's stuff over on Advrider, out of curiosity trying to understand how the PCIII + wideband on my GS was working. He is a pretty smart guy and has really spent huge time on this issue with documentation.

https://www.innovatemotorsports.com/

edit: BTW I also thought the PCIII + wideband must do its closed loop on the PCIII, send a constant signal to the ECU for its O2 input, and run the OEM ECU open loop. Well, it definitely does NOT. It lays its fuel tables open loop on top of the ECU output, and the ECU runs closed loop just as before but off the PCIII's wideband signal, which has a programmable AFR target. This was confirmed by DJ.