2007 Gen 2 Runs crappy but no error codes

[Dan S]

To help you avoid reading this entire tread just to find out in the end that this is very unlikely the answer to a similar problem you are having.  In the end the problem was because of a mistake I made when reassembling my fuel pump way back about 2 years before the "running crappy" cold start problem started.  Skip all the way down to the bottom to find a description of my stupid mistake.     

Below is how this thread started:

I've been discussing this ad-nauseum on another thread because my problem started when I changed the coolant hoses to the high idle wax valve.  Ross Kean has been very helpful in that conversation but here I'm going to try and expand the discussion because it seems to be caused by something other than the coolant hoses.  Below is a video of where I am right now.  In summary, there are no error codes, all the self diagnostic codes seem to be reading and testing correctly, all spark plugs look ok, high idle (wax valve) seems to function correctly, but it is running very lean especially when cold.    

The supplementary service manual is helping a lot.  Looks like maybe the problem is the O2 sensor.  It's strange that it does not show up as a diagnostic mode.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/802254/Yamaha-Fjr1300-S.html?page=24#manual

next I'm going to unplug the air box temp sensor and see if it will run right in open mode.    

 

[1911]

Where are you located?

 

[1911]

Never mind. I found it-Oregon. A little too far to meet up and compare notes. I agonized for months over a bad wire connection.     

 

[feejerbkb]

O2 sensors are typically not involved until they are warm enough to provide accurate/useful data to the ECM.

11.6V seems awfully low. While the engine is idling is there any voltage present from the frame to the Negative battery terminal?

 

[Dan S]

O2 sensors are typically not involved until they are warm enough to provide accurate/useful data to the ECM.

11.6V seems awfully low. While the engine is idling is there any voltage present from the frame to the Negative battery terminal?

thanks.  I was doing diagnostic mode and had started it a couple times but did not run it very long just before doing the video.  Actually this video was the 2nd attempt but was no better than the first one - LOL.   Anyway, the battery was run down a little but I'll give it a charge and check it anyway.  I replaced it the morning that I left for SD (5 weeks ago) and during my 8 day trip through WY and MT and SD it was starting and running just fine so I was thinking the old almost dead battery was the cause of the problem but then the day after I got home the problem came back as bad as before the trip.  

So do you know if the engine runs open loop when started and until it worms up?

 

[Dan S]

Never mind. I found it-Oregon. A little too far to meet up and compare notes. I agonized for months over a bad wire connection.     

Close but no cigar.  A year ago (July 29, 2020 to be exact) I was in Ashville with my 3 brothers. We were working on getting the rear tire replaced on my younger brothers 2007 FJR.  Yes, it's a little weird but 2-1/2 years ago we both bought 2007 FJRs within a week of each other without knowing anything about what the other was up to. 

And going back you your problem.  Did a repair of the TPS wire fix your problem? 

 

[sapest]

Ok, a stupid thought.

Home - runs poorly.

Away - runs fine.

Home again - runs poorly.

Do you buy your fuel from the same place when at home?

Any chance its just bad fuel?

-Steve

 

[1911]

Close but no cigar.  A year ago (July 29, 2020 to be exact) I was in Ashville with my 3 brothers. We were working on getting the rear tire replaced on my younger brothers 2007 FJR.  Yes, it's a little weird but 2-1/2 years ago we both bought 2007 FJRs within a week of each other without knowing anything about what the other was up to. 

And going back you your problem.  Did a repair of the TPS wire fix your problem? 

Yes. It was actually a crimp where five ground wires came together, including the TPS return. Not the same symptoms as yours but an example of how frustrating it can be to chase down an in-range sensor voltage failure or an intermittent issue. I’d sure like to watch your O2 voltage while the bike is “running lean”.

 

[Dan S]

Last night I started it with a good deal of assistance from the starter fluid. Unplugged the O2 sensor and got no error and no change if rough idle.  Then unplugged the air box temp sensor and it lit up the warning light but no change in rough idle. Plugged that back in, error light went out and then unplugged coolant temp sensor and the error light came on but no change in rough idle. Plugged it back in and the light went out.  turned off the engine and checked error code history.  It threw code 20 and 21 for the temp sensors but n error code for unplugging the O2 sensor. I also removed the right side cowl and checked the wire from the O2 sensor to the connector at the left end of the fuel rail but did not find any damage or pinch points. 

Hmm, how do I check the O2 sensor voltage?  I don't think a multimeter will read any quick fluctuations.  And it's 4 wire so I might have to read the wiring diagram.   

about feegerbkb's question.  Is the 11.7 volt reading in diAG mode about right because I have 12.2 at the batter and 13.5 when it's running but 11.7 on the diAG mode.  Maybe I should check the voltage at the fuel pump. Better yet I'm going to check the fuel pressure from the pump (although I'm not sure what normal is). 

Steve (sapest),  the gasoline in it right now was my last fillup coming home, The Dalles I think. It seemsed to run ok for the lst 100 miles, including some stop and go getting through Portland.  And before leaving on my trip I drained the tank completely and put in 2 gallons of clear (no ethanol) and a half can of seafoam and took it for a spirited ride but that didn't help.  

Please keep the ideas coming!!!!

 

[1911]

Hmm, how do I check the O2 sensor voltage?  I don't think a multimeter will read any quick fluctuations.  And it's 4 wire so I might have to read the wiring diagram.   

I haven’t read your account of this journey in full, so forgive me if this has  already been covered please.

Unplugging the O2 sensor rules it out as a cause of the lean mixture. I have seen more than one O2 sensor failure where the sensor sent a false rich signal, 1000 mv plus, but would not set a code. The ECM/PCM/ECU/PGMFi controller would just keep commanding lean based on the faulty O2 reading.

O2 can be measured with a DVOM. It’s not as fast as a O-scope but if it NEVER shows leaving the lean side, <450mv, it’s just another clue that the bike is actually running lean and the starting fluid isn’t compensating for a timing or compression or some other issue.

It’s actually kind of cool to see O2 sensors on a graph working like they should, especially on newer stuff with post cat sensors.

O2-DVOM leads neg on pin 34 Blk/Blu, pos on pin 11 Gry/Wht

MAP and TPS have the most effect on how the motor runs.

Both-DVOM neg on 34 Blk/Blu, TPS pos 19 Yel, MAP pos 16 Pnk/Wht

Somewhere I have the values for my 2007 written down. I never made notes on the dash readings. I may check and record them tomorrow evening. Comparing your bike’s readings to known good values would be a great next step.

All that gibberish aside, the VERY next thing I would do on your bike would be the measure the fuel pressure. See dcarver’s (I think) adventure with low fuel pressure.

The best twelve bucks I ever spent on EBay was for a FJR fuel line that I spliced a few feet of flex injection hose and a pressure schrader into.





Great for stuff like what you are working on and TB syncin' and looking down the barrel of the injector spray pattern

https://player.vimeo.com/video/441526317?app_id=122963&h=8aedd30261

Somewhere along the line I ended up with a set of injectors in which the screen parts of the inlet filters were GONE! Some kind of harsh “injector cleaner” in their past?

dcarver hooked me up on a set of injectors too!

 

[feejerbkb]

thanks.  I was doing diagnostic mode and had started it a couple times but did not run it very long just before doing the video.  Actually this video was the 2nd attempt but was no better than the first one - LOL.   Anyway, the battery was run down a little but I'll give it a charge and check it anyway.  I replaced it the morning that I left for SD (5 weeks ago) and during my 8 day trip through WY and MT and SD it was starting and running just fine so I was thinking the old almost dead battery was the cause of the problem but then the day after I got home the problem came back as bad as before the trip.  

So do you know if the engine runs open loop when started and until it worms up?

I don't actually know if the FJR ignores the O2 sensor until it warms up but I'd bet heavily on it. Your testing seems to confirm that belief.

 

[Dan S]

I don't actually know if the FJR ignores the O2 sensor until it warms up but I'd bet heavily on it. Your testing seems to confirm that belief.

I've always thought that most ECMs run open mode until the engine warms up and them closed loop. I'd like to know at what temp it goes to closed loop.  Last night I think it was up to 140 but it runs so rough and is missing and backfiring so much I'm afraid it's going to wreck the timing chain.

 

[Dan S]

hey 1911.  thanks for the info.  Why does unplugging the O2 sensor rule that out?

Yes, checking fuel pressure is next but I need to gather up some materials and make a hose kit. 

And, how do you test voltage on those little wires. I've used posi tap wire tapes for permanent taps but I don't like the idea of piercing a hole in the insulation for testing.  

 

[1911]

hey 1911.  thanks for the info.  Why does unplugging the O2 sensor rule that out?

Yes, checking fuel pressure is next but I need to gather up some materials and make a hose kit. 

And, how do you test voltage on those little wires. I've used posi tap wire tapes for permanent taps but I don't like the idea of piercing a hole in the insulation for testing.  

If O2 is unplugged it can’t send the ecu a false signal. As others have said O2 isn’t in the picture on a cold start and my hunch is it never really has a lot of influence on fueling, at least not as much as with cars and trucks. I watch it as another diagnostic tool.      https://www.lislecorp.com/specialty-tools/back-probe-and-alligator-clip-set-17-pc

 

[feejerbkb]

I've always thought that most ECMs run open mode until the engine warms up and them closed loop. I'd like to know at what temp it goes to closed loop.  Last night I think it was up to 140 but it runs so rough and is missing and backfiring so much I'm afraid it's going to wreck the timing chain.

30+ years ago the 2-wire O2 sensors were passively heated by exhaust gasses. Now with 4-wire sensors, useful information should be available to the ECU after a few seconds (20s, 30s??). In these days of tighter emissions regulations the sooner an engine is running closed loop the better.

 

[Dan S]

well I finally got a pressure gauge installed and it only makes about 18 psi and immediately falls off to 0 when the pump turns off.  I think the pump may be fine but the pressure control valve is ka putt.  I'm not completely sure if the pressure relief valve is also a check valve and should hold the pressure when the pump shuts off because it looks like in most of the you tube videos they are using a gauge that is used for compression testing and it has a check valve in it.  Also note that I tested continuity on the ground wire from the pump and I hot wired the pump and looks like I'm getting a good 12 volt supply to the pump.  Looks like I'm in the market for a new pump. 

 

[Dan S]

Well I'm pretty embarrassed. But let's just call it a series of unfortunate events. Albeit mostly self inflicted. But it's all fixed and running like it's supposed to. And note that I've edited the first post in this thread so a guy doesn't have to read the whole thing to find out the answer to his problem is probably not going to be found here.  

The bottom line is that when I re-assembled the fuel pump like 2 years ago I did not get the o ring seal between the upper pump assembly and the lower or bottom mounting flange installed correctly so it's been leaking.  It's a wonder it ran at all.  The first photo below is how I found it yesterday when I pulled it apart except the o ring was cockeyed and kinked a little.  Actually this photo shows how I reassembled it yesterday and of course it did not build much pressure. The second photo below shows how the o ring is installed in the lower mounting flange with the plastic snap ring holding in place.  Then the end of the tube of the upper pump section pushes over the o ring when the upper section is inserted and snapped into the lower section. 

So what was the Series of most unfortunate events?  Right after I got this bike I decided to put Heli bars on it because I like a more upright riding position.  Too bad they get in the way of just lifting the front of the tank to get at all the stuff under there.  So 2 years ago I was working on my Rostra cruise linkage with the tank, about 3/4 full,  propped up but not connected at the rear pivot point and it fell over and the fuel line broke loose at the barbed connection on the fuel pump assembly.  Oh crap.  And you can't buy any of the individual parts of this assembly. So I bought a used pump off flee bay, and removed the lower flange piece from the used flee bay pump and installed the lower pump section from my bike on the good part.  Then I sold the pump section, sans the lower mounting flange, on flee bay for a total cost of about $40.  Apparently I did not pay close enough attention to how it is supposed to go back together.  It's a wonder it ran at all.  And to think that I've put about 16 miles on it with it making only 20 psi fuel pressure.  That's kind of a miracle.  

Thank you so very much to everyone that has listened to this sad story and have provided comments and suggestion.