De-linking the '06?
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Luke
Luke
If you're on the racetrack every week then by all means de-link and de-ABS.
But if you ride in the uncontrolled environment called 'the street', leave the bike alone; you're way better-off with the linked ABS.
But if you ride in the uncontrolled environment called 'the street', leave the bike alone; you're way better-off with the linked ABS.
GAPS
Well-known member
When motorcycle wheels stop turning and the bike is still moving bad things can happen. Most often this lack of rotation/forward motion occurs in a panic situation.....that is when I want the most sophisticated, automated, dumbed down, linked ABS system I can afford. Yes, 99.9% of the time I will not need this techno crap but when the chips are down and you find yourself caught with your guard down this shit can save your ass. I would bet most 'non linked ABS pureists' would never know they had the linked ABS until it saved their hide.
FJRski
Well-known member
If I wanted linked brakes I'd squeeze the lever with my hand and pump the pedal with my foot at the same time. Give me ABS and let me decide how to use it. But then, even the best engineering solutions represent a compromise. SO WHEN DOES MY NEW '06 ARRIVE? I don't care what kind of brakes it has at this point, I just wanna ride....
ELP_JC
Well-known member
I brought this thread back from the dead so I don't get chastised for not doing a freaking search.
Anyway, it's been a year after the last post, and I'd like to ask the original question: DOES ANYBODY HAVE DE-LINKED THE BRAKES ON AN '06/-07??
And yes, I like ABS (that's why I bought this bike), so stick to the point folks.
As an educational comment, I've had several Hondas with linked brakes (VFR, XX, GL1800), and they're much more complex indeed, and linked front to back and back to front. They have a THIRD master cylinder, that applies rear brakes when the forks dive and press such piston. I will spare the piston application lecture, but I can answer that if somebody wants the info. ALL LBS Hondas use 3-piston calipers, by the way.
The FJR has brakes linked REAR TO FRONT only, and use 4-piston calipers in the front a 1-piston caliper in the rear. But my main gripe is the lack of power of front brake alone, plus the fact it feels unbalanced, since the left caliper has full force (all 4 pistons), but the right only 2 (opposed ones). I'm almost positive the linking line from rear master to right front caliper is OUTSIDE the ABS module, since rear brake alone would never lock the front wheel. I'd like corroboration of that from somebody with a service manual, but if that's the case, de-linking should be as easy as getting a bridge from the 2 banjos on the front right caliper, and eliminating the 'T' somewhere on the rear brake line.
Finally, the logic behind linked brakes is for inexperienced riders who fear using front brake will flip bike over, hence the extra help when using only rear brake. I DON'T NEED THAT, since I use front brake only most of the time, so save your safety/yamaha-knows-best/leave-things-alone, etc. comments. Thanks gang.
JC
Anyway, it's been a year after the last post, and I'd like to ask the original question: DOES ANYBODY HAVE DE-LINKED THE BRAKES ON AN '06/-07??
And yes, I like ABS (that's why I bought this bike), so stick to the point folks.
As an educational comment, I've had several Hondas with linked brakes (VFR, XX, GL1800), and they're much more complex indeed, and linked front to back and back to front. They have a THIRD master cylinder, that applies rear brakes when the forks dive and press such piston. I will spare the piston application lecture, but I can answer that if somebody wants the info. ALL LBS Hondas use 3-piston calipers, by the way.
The FJR has brakes linked REAR TO FRONT only, and use 4-piston calipers in the front a 1-piston caliper in the rear. But my main gripe is the lack of power of front brake alone, plus the fact it feels unbalanced, since the left caliper has full force (all 4 pistons), but the right only 2 (opposed ones). I'm almost positive the linking line from rear master to right front caliper is OUTSIDE the ABS module, since rear brake alone would never lock the front wheel. I'd like corroboration of that from somebody with a service manual, but if that's the case, de-linking should be as easy as getting a bridge from the 2 banjos on the front right caliper, and eliminating the 'T' somewhere on the rear brake line.
Finally, the logic behind linked brakes is for inexperienced riders who fear using front brake will flip bike over, hence the extra help when using only rear brake. I DON'T NEED THAT, since I use front brake only most of the time, so save your safety/yamaha-knows-best/leave-things-alone, etc. comments. Thanks gang.
JC
The ABS system has three hydraulic control valves -- one modulating six front caliper pistons, one modulating the rear caliper piston, and one modulating the two front caliper pistons actuated by the brake pedal.
If the rear wheel starts to lock the ABS will modulate the rear brake's hydraulic fluid but the front two pistons won't be modulated unless the front wheel starts to lock too.
If the rear wheel starts to lock the ABS will modulate the rear brake's hydraulic fluid but the front two pistons won't be modulated unless the front wheel starts to lock too.
ELP_JC
Well-known member
Oops. So forget about de-linking then; it can still be done, but I won't mess with it. You can never lock the front brake with just 2 pistons linked to the rear brake on such a heavy bike, but guess Yamaha's lawyers got their way, huh?
Since you either know this, have a manual, or both, can you tell me if that 3rd hydraulic valve is fed by the rear fluid reservoir?
And could you confirm what my dealer's service manager said about the brakes just needing a regular bleed?? In other words, no computer interface to activate the control valves, no special tools, no extra bleeding nipples (other than the 2nd on the front right caliper), etc.
My BMW servo system had 11 valves to bleed, but other than a bit time consuming, it was pretty easy once you knew the sequence. So this one should be a piece of cake. Just one extra nipple on the front right caliper, which I assume it's the botom one, right?? Thanks.
JC
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The rear fluid reservoir supplies fluid to all pistons actuated by the pedal -- one rear and two front pistons. The front reservoir supplies fluid to the remaining six front pistons.
Don't know about replacing the fluid. Although the vast majority of the fluid would naturally be flushed from the system with no actuation of the ABS module. A very small quantity of old fluid would likely be retained in the fluid return loop of the control valves which includes the fluid buffer chambers and the low pressure inlet to the hydraulic pumps.
Don't know about replacing the fluid. Although the vast majority of the fluid would naturally be flushed from the system with no actuation of the ABS module. A very small quantity of old fluid would likely be retained in the fluid return loop of the control valves which includes the fluid buffer chambers and the low pressure inlet to the hydraulic pumps.
UweRoss
Well-known member
Visualize a patch of ice, or a one of those steel plates they throw across holes when doing utility work -- in the rain.
Still think you can't lock the front wheel with just two pistons?
-Uwe-
PS: What keeps people who want unlinked (or even non-ABS) Gen-II bikes from simply ripping out the entire Gen-II hydraulic system and installing the corresponding Gen-I stuff it its place?
HaulinAshe
Well-known member
Because the Yamaha system is extremely well engineered, extremely well implemented, and an almost indetectable linking system. The only way you can "feel" the fronts being applied is with extremely wet/slick surfaces under the front tire only, such as the front passing over a wet paint stripe with the rear on dry pavement.
You should really try the system thoroughly before deciding to modify it. I trail brake constantly, and the linking is never enough to influence even the hardest corners for me. I can only detect its action when purposely seeking out special road conditions as listed above.
Oh, must say, it is a concern when braking on sandy pavement or pea gravel turns. You have to apply more force to the bars in order to assure they don't tuck if you stomp the rears. Sand and tiny gravel are the only conditions I've ridden that I would prefer NOT to have the Yami linked brakes.
But to answer your direct question...
No, have not tried de-linking. I like the brake system on my 07 ABS much better than the one on my 05 ABS.
UweRoss
Well-known member
I agree -- I'm happy with the brakes on my '06.
I posed the question as food for though for the Luddites who aren't -- who seem to have concluded that de-linking can't be done.
-Uwe-
ELP_JC
Well-known member
Good point. And yes, according to what I've read, I'd have preferred a GenI ABS system myself. I can still 'panic' brake with 2 fingers on this bike (always brake with just 2 fingers), but barely. And doing so with only the front brake feels like crap. I did extensive tests on 2 demo bikes, and as soon as I applied both levers, the shuddering stopped. Makes sense, as front braking is not balanced until pressing the rear pedal. I simply don't like that myself, that's all, but will have to get used to it (no biggie).
The best linking I've ever had was on my BMW K1200RS, which had full braking force (front and rear) with just the front lever, but only rear braking with the rear. Unfortunately, that awesome system could only work with electronic servos, and many people didn't like that complication, but I still prefer simply ABS, unlinked brakes.
No bike is perfect, but am quite happy with this one; everything is always a compromise. They should put those systems on beginner bikes, if at all. Any rider worth a darn knows the majority of braking is done with the front, so why the freaking linked brakes, especially with ABS? They should be an option IMO. Yamaha spends unnecessary money on crap like that, and skimps on a freaking baro sensor that causes the bike to ride like $hit? Nice priorities. Later gang.
JC
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TruWrecks
Still chewing thru the Restraints
From Yamaha:
Personally I don't really notice the linked brakes. This is my first bike with linked and/or ABS brakes. I use both brakes, as it should be correctly done, for panic stops. No shuttering unless the front pads get really hot, like they did in AZ last month. You have to hit the brakes pretty hard to them to activate the linked pairs.
ELP_JC
Well-known member
This is a matter of intense debate, but on a nonABS bike it's practically impossible to monitor BOTH wheels yourself on a street (unplanned) scenario, and feel which one is locking up, then barely release brake and reapply, playing a human ABS machine. No freaking way you can do that if you're honest with yourself. It's extremely easy to lock the rear wheel, since you have less feel on your boot and wheel has very little weight at maximum braking, PLUS that's the wheel that gives most of the balance to the chassis while spinning (gyroscopic effect), so if you don't immediately release brake, you'd be down before you knew what hit you. And since most of the braking force takes effect at the front wheel once weight is transferred forward, it's much more likely you'd be able to control lockup with just the front brake, which does over 90% of the braking. Even many racers only use the front brake for that reason. Much easier to master 90% of braking with one lever than pretend you can do 100% and end up on your a$$. But that's just me. And yes, I could probably brake faster with both brakes on a straight line (applying rear brake initially, then let go), concentrating on exactly what I'm doing, but that's hardly what happens when an idiot suddenly turns in front of you.
On the FJR, that's a moot point due to ABS, but I ride other bikes, and since your instincts take over on an emergency situation, I'll keep it that way. I'm not racing on the streets, so I have no objection to linked brakes in general (loved the ones on my BMW), but how they were done on this bike is what I didn't like. BUT they're even worse on Hondas, so as I said, I'm fine with the compromise. The front brakes just lack power for themselves; that's my main gripe. Maybe a grippier set of pads might be the answer; open to suggestions here folks.
For experienced riders, linked brakes are not necessary, period. If you use both brakes, you're doing the linking yourself, but the choice should be ours. It's simply a CYA approach by most manufacturers, so I'll have to live with it. But don't tell me it's better for everybody; otherwise sportbikes would have them, and they don't. Later.
JC
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War Machine
Zero Altitude Test Pilot
The only thing I have against linked braking is tire failure at highway speed. If it's a rear tire, you can effectively use the front brake to slow to a stop, because the front brake is not linked to the rear. But God forbid you have a front tire failure, when you apply the rear brake it automatically actuates the front brake. If I'm not mistaken you definetly do not want to apply the front brake for a front tire failure at any speed no less at highway speed.
I love the ABS on my 06 FJR I just wish they weren't linked. As TruWrecks stated I use both brakes, all the time.
ELP_JC
Well-known member
You're absolutely correct on the first statement.
Completely agree with you on the 2nd.
And yes, the best way to brake on this bike is by using both brakes. And no worries locking the rear wheel with ABS. But that's not the case without. Decided to just keep one bike due to not enough time to ride, so will get used to brake with both brakes, I guess. It was a good discussion. Later.
JC
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FJR1300Mark
Well-known member
I had an 05. It had ABS but was not linked.
I now have an 07 which is ABS and linked. I was sceptical about the linking, but after riding 1900 miles I do not notice the linking with any of the normal riding. I have made some quick (non emergency) stops and have not noticed the linking there either. I driven short distances on sand and the front tire doesn't bury itself either when using the back linked brake. The normal sport - touring riding experience and safety is increased with ABS and these linked brakes.
I also have a CB750 - carbs, drum rear brake- you know the old tech stuff. I ride it knowing I can lock the back wheel even with drum brakes. And I know it wont stop anywhere near as fast or as securely as the FJR even though it is quite a bit lighter. I still enjoy the lack of technology at times. However I sure feel better knowing the fjr has the stopping power it does.
There really isn't a perfect bike or I'd have just one and not be thinking about another one.
I now have an 07 which is ABS and linked. I was sceptical about the linking, but after riding 1900 miles I do not notice the linking with any of the normal riding. I have made some quick (non emergency) stops and have not noticed the linking there either. I driven short distances on sand and the front tire doesn't bury itself either when using the back linked brake. The normal sport - touring riding experience and safety is increased with ABS and these linked brakes.
I also have a CB750 - carbs, drum rear brake- you know the old tech stuff. I ride it knowing I can lock the back wheel even with drum brakes. And I know it wont stop anywhere near as fast or as securely as the FJR even though it is quite a bit lighter. I still enjoy the lack of technology at times. However I sure feel better knowing the fjr has the stopping power it does.
There really isn't a perfect bike or I'd have just one and not be thinking about another one.
