Way more than you ever wanted to know about oil

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Crivens

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I tried to add this to the "Never-Ending Pointless Recurring Threads" but I can't create a new topic there. Perhaps an admin would be kind enough to move it and delete this paragraph?

After reading some of the numerous “Engine Oil” threads I thought I would try to shed some light on a few of the misconceptions and misunderstandings about motor oil.

First the disclaimer: I am not a petroleum engineer or a chemist, however I have had cause and the inclination to study motor oils, their performance characteristics and related information, in depth.

If you ask anyone to tell you why an engine needs oil they will most likely know it is to provide lubrication for moving parts.

Seems pretty straight forward: We put oil in our engines because it is slippery and metal things moving next to other metal things need something slippery between them right? That is true as far as it goes. But if that where the only consideration we would be having long discussions center around the film strength of our preferred brand rather than debates over the best viscosity and the negative effects of friction modifiers.

While providing lubrication is motor oils primary job it is not its only job. Not by a long way.

In addition to lubricating moving parts it is also responsible for, among other things, holding contaminants such as silica (dirt), wear metals, and combustion byproducts in suspension so they end up in the filter rather than the bottom of you engine, providing rust and corrosion protection, neutralizing acids formed by the aforementioned combustion byproducts, cooling of critical components and cleaning up the buildup of tars, waxes and other “gunk” left behind from the last time you over-extended your drain interval (oil change).

It has to do all those things across a wide range of temperatures from sub-zero to 250° Fahrenheit, remaining thin enough to be pumpable at -10° and thick enough to lubricate at 210°.

To be able to do all those things modern motor oil is a hybrid concoction of various chemicals created by blending some kind of “base stock” and an additive "package". The base stock can be petroleum based, fully synthetic (that is synthesized by mixing various chemicals) or a combination of both, (typically referred to as semi-synthetic depending on the ratio of petroleum based and synthetic oils).

Much of the debate in the various oil discussions seems to be centered around viscosity, often called weight. Amusingly enough an oils weight is on rather loosely an indication of its actual viscosity.

Viscosity is officially defined as: “resistance of a liquid to shear forces (and hence to flow)” in more practical terms: its thickness. Viscosity is actually measured in centi-Stokes(cSt). Weight on the other hand is an arbitrary measurement created by the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) and covers a range of actual viscosities.

To establish a weight, the oil it is heated to 210°F (100° C) and the speed it flows through a viscometer is measured. For instance an SAE 40 has a cSt at 100°C of 12.5 to < 16.3. Under that system an oil with a viscosity of 16.29cSt would be an SAE 40, but one with a viscosity of 16.3cSt would be an SAE 50. Because of the way that the SAE classification system works it is entirely possible to have an SAE 40 and an SAE 50 that are virtually identical in actual viscosity!

This brings us to the much misunderstood and often debated “Multi-Weight” oils. First the biggest misconception: the W in 10W-40 does NOT stand for weight, it in fact stands for Winter. Winter ratings are created using a different method all together and are not directly comparable to the other half of the number.

For practical purposes however a 10W-40 will act like an SAE 10 weight oil would at 210° when it is "cold", and an SAE 40 weight oil when it is at 210°. This is desirable to reduce wear on start up, thinner oil flows more quickly to vital parts, or if it’s cold enough to even be able to start up at all. If the oil got thick enough your entire engine could become one giant viscous damper and be impossible to turn over at least quickly enough to start.

The way that this multiple personality is achieved is interesting and relevant in itself. Long-chain molecules called polymers are added to a thin base stock as part of the additive package. This part of the package is called a Viscosity Improver or VI. When they are cold these added polymers are coiled up. As the oil is heated these polymers “unwind” into long straight chains keeping the oil from thinning as much.

So far so good, VIs keep a thin oil that flows well at low temperatures from thinning as the temperature increases, but there is a problem. One that is particularly relevant to motorcycles: these additives degrade in high heat or in high shear force situations.

In most motorcycle applications the engine and transmission share a common oil sump. That is we expect the same oil that lubricates, cools and protects the engine to lubricate the clutch and transmission as well.

The clutch and transmission introduce forces, primarily shear forces, that an automotive engine typically doesn’t subject its oil to. Those forces can break up these polymers, reducing their ability to thicken the oil at operating temperature and thus rendering that 10W-40 into a 10W-20 or even a 10W-10 in a fairly short time. Some studies indicate that breakdown in the VIs can happen in as little as 1500 miles.

As I implied above, most motorcycles, Japanese motorcycles anyway, have a “wet” clutch. This means that the clutch is bathed in engine oil along with the rest of the transmission.

While this offers several benefits over a dry clutch it presents additional problems when deciding on an oil to use. Modern automotive “Energy Saving” oils have an additional set of additives called friction modifiers that in effect make the oil slipperier. This reduced friction can dramatically affect a wet clutches ability to remain engaged under load and could result in slipping, accelerated wear and ultimately premature failure.

Motorcycle engines tend to be much more powerful for their size than a comparable automotive engine and commonly are both capable of, and operated at, much higher RPMs than a normal cage driver would along with being designed to be as light as practical. Because of all of that a motorcycle requires a different additive package than a normal automobile would.

In recognition of this and because automotive requirements are moving in a different direction powersports manufactures have created their own oil spec know as JASO. This spec addresses the specific and different needs of motorcycles and other powersports engines.

Many people in the various discussions report using diesel spec oils such as Rotella T, Delo, or Delvac these are probably better choices than automotive spec oils, but will be formulated for the specific requirements of a diesel engine, such as high solid suspension characteristics and detergents with no thought given to how those might affect things such as clutch materials.

Which oil to use in your motorcycle is your choice and will undoubtedly be influenced by things such as your financial situation, the drain intervals and personal preference.

Personally I will use an oil specifically designed for use in wet clutch motorcycle engines, produced by a reputable manufacture, that meets the appropriate JASO requirements and that I can get the best price on, but with little concern for the actual brand, specific viscosity, or base stock used to create it.

Oh and yes you can mix different brands, base stocks and even weights of oil if you want. You actually can create your own custom blends if you are of a mind to. Mixing 2Qts of 10W-40 with 2Qts of 20W-50 will net you something much like a 15W-45.

 
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Thanks! Question: Can the broken long chain multi-vis polymers reassemble after breaking down? WBill

 
So your point is?

Please tell me what motor oil ruined an engine. Clutch is a different story, that being said there are way too many people using many other oils for diesel etc. and get hundreds of thousands of miles out of their motorcycle motors and clutches.

Just sayin'. I'm no expert either and I come from the all oil is a bloody commodity side, so use your head and you can't go wrong or broke.

Does Yamaha manufacture their own oil? No. Does Harley Davidson? No. But they all claim to use their oil or else... The giant few oil makers make all the oil and sell it under a brand. Do you think they are "specially formulated" for their exact specs/chemicals like all the Bike, Car and other manufacturers of engines claim only their oil works etc? As long as the oil "meets" the spec, doesn't matter so much what's in it... so to speak. I know there is all the phosphorus talk etc and that counts but.... I think you get my drift. ;)

 
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Yep, I read the whole thing...could not resist an oil thread.

Yet, no "magic bullet".

So Fresh oil is the best oil; that's what I always walk away with in a oil thread.

.

If I can ever find that AMSoil, I am gonna try that....the guy at the rally swears by it :D :assassin:

 
A good summary of the same info that has been presented here a 'metric shitload' already.

BTW, 226,000 miles on Rotella T* on my first FJR before she met her demise.

* Occasionally Mobil Delvac 15W-40 if it was cheaper at Wallyworld.

Seeing as it's a good summary of info, I think I'll leave it in technical.

 
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I read the OP and caught a few "half-truths"

Without facts and data to back them up, opinions and anecdotes

don't carry much weight ( viscosity ).

If you're the sort of person that worries about this kind of stuff,

then, as other's have suggested, change your oil regularly, if not

frequently, regardless of what type you choose to use.

Then, go out and RIDE!

 
.

If I can ever find that AMSoil, I am gonna try that....the guy at the rally swears by it :D :assassin:
I've got to chime in on the Amsoil issue.

I switched my car over to Amsoil a few years ago and it didn't do any justice.

I've always been a Castrol GTX user, I sent samples to Blackstone Labs to set up a comparison prior to my switch to Amsoil. Followed the instructions for the switch over, including the engine flush ect. Even used their oil filters.

After only 3,000 miles the sample of the Amsoil that I sent to Blackstone labs showed more engine wear then my trusty old Castrol GTX.

Was totally a waste of good $$$$, the stuff ain't cheap. And they talk about extended drain intervals?? No way!

On a positive note, I also switch my transmission (same car) over to Amsoil and the results were superior!

So +1 on Amsoil ATF -1 on their motor oil.

 
So your point is?

Please tell me what motor oil ruined an engine. Clutch is a different story, that being said there are way too many people using many other oils for diesel etc. and get hundreds of thousands of miles out of their motorcycle motors and clutches.

Just sayin'. I'm no expert either and I come from the all oil is a bloody commodity side, so use your head and you can't go wrong or broke.

Does Yamaha manufacture their own oil? No. Does Harley Davidson? No. But they all claim to use their oil or else... The giant few oil makers make all the oil and sell it under a brand. Do you think they are "specially formulated" for their exact specs/chemicals like all the Bike, Car and other manufacturers of engines claim only their oil works etc? As long as the oil "meets" the spec, doesn't matter so much what's in it... so to speak. I know there is all the phosphorus talk etc and that counts but.... I think you get my drift. ;)

Honestly my only real point was to hopefully add a technical foundation to some of the discussions.

That being said I would love to see this go in a more technical direction more into the realm of science.

Here is my proposal: I will find a specially formulated motorcycle specific oil and run it in my bike over the summer, changing it at the recommended intervals and submitting an oil analysis report for each oil change, along with a summary of the environmental conditions that I rode in during each change.

If someone who runs some brand of diesel spec oil will do the same we can use the information from the analysis reports to make an objective assessment of the condition of the oil at each drain interval and prove whether the motorcycle specific oils are worth the extra cost.

For those who are not familiar with oil analysis, kits are available from most "professional" auto parts stores and run between $15-$20. You collect the oil in a small plastic bottle and it gets mailed to the lab (label and lab fees covered by the cost, postage extra). In a few days the lab will mail you back a report.

Here is a link to the Napa (Wix) kit

If you have a Baldwin filter dealer near by their part number is: OTK5063

 
Now that's a reply!! :read:

I'd love to see this type of comparison, as it will 'put some money on the table' during discussions. I run MOBIL 1 MX4T in the FJR and do not want to use a diesel product instead. I'll save that for the truck!

Watching......

 
.

If I can ever find that AMSoil, I am gonna try that....the guy at the rally swears by it :D :assassin:
I've got to chime in on the Amsoil issue.

I switched my car over to Amsoil a few years ago and it didn't do any justice.

I've always been a Castrol GTX user, I sent samples to Blackstone Labs to set up a comparison prior to my switch to Amsoil. Followed the instructions for the switch over, including the engine flush ect. Even used their oil filters.

After only 3,000 miles the sample of the Amsoil that I sent to Blackstone labs showed more engine wear then my trusty old Castrol GTX.

Was totally a waste of good $$, the stuff ain't cheap. And they talk about extended drain intervals?? No way!

On a positive note, I also switch my transmission (same car) over to Amsoil and the results were superior!

So +1 on Amsoil ATF -1 on their motor oil.
Interesting. I've been running Amsoil for about 30k miles in the FJR, with 5k mile change intervals and Blackstone lab analysis. They've been telling me to go to 6.5K change intervals based on what they're finding.

 
How accurate are the labs? That's my issue.

A trusted source once told me that when GM was developing their oil life monitor they did so by validation testing and oil testing. But they had to go to in-house oil testing as they could not get accurate, repeatable results from the commercial labs available. Maybe they have gotten better?

Anybody ever sent in the same sample on more than one occasion to see if the test results were consistent?

I think all this testing stuff is kind of silly. How many of you testers will put more than 50,000 or 75,000 miles on your FJRs? I still have yet to hear of one single engine failure due to oil issues.

Get a decent quality relatively inexpensive applicable oil and change it regularly. Simple.

Like I said..........226,000 miles on conventional (diesel) motor oil.

 
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For practical purposes however a 10W-40 will act like an SAE 10 weight oil would at 210° when it is "cold", and an SAE 40 weight oil when it is at 210°.
That is an incorrect statement, and also physically impossible. For your statement to be true would mean that the oil actually becomes thicker as it increases in temperature. It does not do that. What the first number actually stands for is what straight weight oil it behaves like when both are cold (zero degrees C).

IOW, a 10W40 oil has viscosity in the same range as that of of a straight 10W oil when both are cold, and the viscosity of a straight 40 weight oil when both are hot (100C). The oil still thins as it gets hotter, but at a reduced rate as compared to straight weight oils.

 
How accurate are the labs? That's my issue.

A trusted source once told me that when GM was developing their oil life monitor they did so by validation testing and oil testing. But they had to go to in-house oil testing as they could not get accurate, repeatable results from the commercial labs available. Maybe they have gotten better?

Anybody ever sent in the same sample on more than one occasion to see if the test results were consistent?

I think all this testing stuff is kind of silly. How many of you testers will put more than 50,000 or 75,000 miles on your FJRs? I still have yet to hear of one single engine failure due to oil issues.

Get a decent quality relatively inexpensive applicable oil and change it regularly. Simple.

Like I said..........226,000 miles on conventional (diesel) motor oil.
Gunny SkooterG.


So your point is?

Please tell me what motor oil ruined an engine. Clutch is a different story, that being said there are way too many people using many other oils for diesel etc. and get hundreds of thousands of miles out of their motorcycle motors and clutches.

Just sayin'. I'm no expert either and I come from the all oil is a bloody commodity side, so use your head and you can't go wrong or broke.

Does Yamaha manufacture their own oil? No. Does Harley Davidson? No. But they all claim to use their oil or else... The giant few oil makers make all the oil and sell it under a brand. Do you think they are "specially formulated" for their exact specs/chemicals like all the Bike, Car and other manufacturers of engines claim only their oil works etc? As long as the oil "meets" the spec, doesn't matter so much what's in it... so to speak. I know there is all the phosphorus talk etc and that counts but.... I think you get my drift. ;)
Honestly my only real point was to hopefully add a technical foundation to some of the discussions.
That being said I would love to see this go in a more technical direction more into the realm of science.

Here is my proposal: I will find a specially formulated motorcycle specific oil and run it in my bike over the summer, changing it at the recommended intervals and submitting an oil analysis report for each oil change, along with a summary of the environmental conditions that I rode in during each change.

If someone who runs some brand of diesel spec oil will do the same we can use the information from the analysis reports to make an objective assessment of the condition of the oil at each drain interval and prove whether the motorcycle specific oils are worth the extra cost.

For those who are not familiar with oil analysis, kits are available from most "professional" auto parts stores and run between $15-$20. You collect the oil in a small plastic bottle and it gets mailed to the lab (label and lab fees covered by the cost, postage extra). In a few days the lab will mail you back a report.

Here is a link to the Napa (Wix) kit

If you have a Baldwin filter dealer near by their part number is: OTK5063
I have no bone in this. I don't care. My bike runs fine, my parts are lubed well IMO, the diesel oil helps with shear in the tranny. I'm not worried, I don't care what is found in the oil when it's done, I don't care what others run in their bikes or how much they pay for it. Truly what ever oil makes you comfortable is the perfect oil. My oil is it's doing it's job period. I could get similar results and waste giant $$ using Yamalube too or other high end oils.
I use the same oil as SkooterG does Rotella-T. I also used other oils before that, none of them were the wrong oil or bad, just my personal preference. With over 226K on SkooterG's motorcycle engine, I'd say Rotella-T is working great for the bike. No proof to say otherwise, just can kicking theories.

Again my drift in a nut shell is oil is a commodity and what ever floats your boat is the shiz. I know of no one that has said a certain motor oil destroyed their motor. It's really that simple to me. So good luck on your tests and use what is the best. ;)

That's why this is in NEPRT and not Technical.

 
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...Oh and yes you can mix different brands, base stocks and even weights of oil if you want. You actually can create your own custom blends if you are of a mind to. Mixing 2Qts of 10W-40 with 2Qts of 20W-50 will net you something much like a 15W-45.
Be careful, here -- especially with "boutique/specialty" motor oils (not so much with the 'majors'). Oils may not be entirely compatable? Maybe you should lab-test (mix/heat at home) first? If there's a 'Mil.Spec' on the label -- all's OK -- Govt. mandates 'Mil.Spec' for military to ensure compatability (convoys en-route, for example...).

...Please tell me what motor oil ruined an engine.
Oil Labs can cite many examples -- mostly from owners trying to achieve manufacturers' extended drain interval claims. A few from exploring some lube's advertised 'magical' special properties.

...How accurate are the labs? I think all this testing stuff is kind of silly.
Oil analysis is the real deal -- fleets employ OA (have for decades) to save large on maitenance costs.

And, independent labs (v/s oil company) have no 'axe to grind' -- "just the facts."

One-shot OA may not tell too much -- unless there's impending failure? But, over time, wear-metal trends (ppm iron, tin, lead, etc.); viscosity change; other contaminants (coolant, fuel, insolubles, etc.); and, ideal oil/filter change intervals can all be shown by repeated OA.

The most common benefit: as a determinant (without other issues -- failed component) for determining change intervals for both oil and filter due to increases in insolubles (dirty oil).

MamaYama reccos only changing the FJR's oil filter every other oil change...

 
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No horse in the race but to the person who switched a car out with the engine flush, used Amsoil and had bad tests. How old was the car? True hydro cracked oils are notorious for flushing any varnish or build up you have in the motor. And any brass bushing or any bearing is going to have some baked on varnish hanging around. I would have tried another fill on the Amsoil. And no matter what would have ran the first fill to 5k or 6K without a thought.

I am not advocating synth or dino. But the resistance to shear forces and viscosity break down from heat in synth is far superior to dino oils, proven, and one of the reasons it was made.

However I do not think it matters if your changing the oil and filter every 4k with a proper rated oil, with clutch compatibility in mind.

Too much fuss over something that with a little common sense, is not really a issue worth all the bandwidth it receives.

At 150 miles I changed my break in oil out to Mobile Delvac and a Bosh filter. When I took it in for the 600 the tech said no problems.

 
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as a determinant (without other issues -- failed component) for determining change intervals for both oil and filter due to increases in insolubles (dirty oil).
Where do you get that from? According to the GM source, it is depletion of the anti-wear additives (Zinc) that most often is the determining factor in the useful life in an oil.

I have no doubt OA is a useful tool and huge benefit for fleets. I still think it is silly for an FJR, or ever personal car.

 
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