Sill Running Like Crap!

[Redfish Hunter]

Process of elimination is obviously your only option but I keep thinking electrical. Did the bike gradually start running badly during the rain or did it start running badly all at once? I think that every piece of advice you have gotten so far has been good, and obviously I don't know the answer either. If the air filter got saturated with water would it gradually start choking the motor down or would it happen all at once? Same question for plugged hoses and cannisters. I thought about this some more, you would not even need to use a multimeter to check the obvious. You could let the bike run on the center stand and run water from the hose over various switches and sections of the bike and the more obvious electrical connectors until it started to run badly. Just some thoughts, I hope you find it no matter what.

 

[RossKean]

It actually started running badly rather abruptly - at least from the time I noticed it wasn't its usual responsive self until it began running really rough, it was probably less than 5 minutes. When I rode it the next day, it was a bit intermittant but seemed to improve gradually. I think there are a number of good suggestions here and starting tomorrow evening, I will dig into it.

I hope it doesn't return to normal operation without finding the smoking gun. At this point, I won't be able to trust it for any sort of long trip if I don't find out (and fix) what happened.

I will report back with findings and observations. In the meantime, if there are any other ideas out there, please post up.

Just thinking - if the tank vent was plugged so it was running under some vacuum, it might have been sucking water and road splooge up the lines from the Kalifornia Kanister into the fuel tank. Slugs of water would certainly explain its behavior and might take awhile to clear. I think there is a check valve in the system to prevent this sort of thing but who says its working. Hmm...

 

[Bustanut joker]

Ideas? Hmmmm

Ride around naked with a chicken mask on singing Manillow show tunes?

 

[RossKean]

Ideas? Hmmmm

Ride around naked with a chicken mask on singing Manillow show tunes?

Thanks for your support and valued contribution. No need to be a dick!

 

[Bustanut joker]

Ideas? Hmmmm

Ride around naked with a chicken mask on singing Manillow show tunes?

Thanks for your support and valued contribution. No need to be a dick!

So It's safe to assume ya wanna divorce then?

 

[Bounce]

Ideas? Hmmmm

Ride around naked with a chicken mask on singing Manillow show tunes?

Thanks for your support and valued contribution. No need to be a dick!

no worries. the last thing anyone would think of if they saw him riding around nekkid is "dick".

 

[Auburn]

After looking into the venting issues. I would start checking as many connectors as I could and put electrical grease on all of them as you put them back together. it could be one wire in one connector somewhere is not making good contact or is grounding or shorting out when it gets wet.

 

[yamafitter]

Just thinking - if the tank vent was plugged so it was running under some vacuum, it might have been sucking water and road splooge up the lines from the Kalifornia Kanister into the fuel tank. Slugs of water would certainly explain its behavior and might take awhile to clear. I think there is a check valve in the system to prevent this sort of thing but who says its working. Hmm...

If it is a water in the fuel issue a little methyl hydrate would go a long way to clearing that up immediately. It is going to be very educational when you finally track down the culprit. I don't think it is a high voltage issue since you can usually hear the crack from the sparking and there were no signs of that when we were trying to figure this out last year at NERDS.

 

[RossKean]

It is/was acting like a a high voltage ignition problem or possibly water getting into the tank. Either could explain the very rough running, cutting out and poor power - especially at low RPM. In either case, it could take some time to recover by drying the electrics out or burning off the water in the tank. Low voltage connections could be the problem as well but it seems less likely. HV is MUCH more suseptible to failure with humidity.

I originally thought it might be crap blocking the uptake filter in the tank (visual inspection through the fill hole) but the inside of the tank looked clean. I was wondering about a bad or marginal fuel pump, fuel injector or fuel pressure regulation. None of these issues is likely to happen because of a rain event and then gradually correct itself during the next couple of days.

I took the tank cover apart last night - not very dirty and I could easily blow air through it. The tank was under some vacuum when I checked it shortly after the "event" but that wasn't the root cause - it was still running crappy after releasing the vacuum (although vacuum might have been responsible for water getting sucked into the tank via canister or vent lines). Vent lines seemed to be OK but I don't really have any basis for comparison.. I did not bypass the California crap yesterday but plan to do so. No particular advantage in leaving it together and it MIGHT be an issue. Didn't seem blocked. Am going to change the air filter whether it is bad or not - never really liked K&N filters but it is what came on the bike. I will check out the airbox at the same time.

It is running fairly well now although not perfectly. Unfortunately, this means I won't be able to tell whether anything I do has fixed it. After bypassing the canister, I will see if I can induce a failure by carefully directed shots of water, paying particular attention to coils and wires. That didn't get us anywhere when we tried it at NERDs last year but it is the next logical step. Last year, I did check and grease as many likely (low voltage) electrical connections as I could but didn't find anything. I will continue to check.

Yamafitter - thought about trying the methanol. With our alky gas, we have a bit better ability to absorb moisture without additives although it gets really messy once you exceed the saturation point - forms emulsions that have a higher effective viscosity. Don't know whether adding more alcohol would help or hurt. Last year, I did try succesive tanks of gas with various additives and nothing seemed particularly effective. Those problems were complicated by the pinched O2 sensor wire after the "event" but before it was really running right. (Some forum controversy whether the O2 sensor could have caused my subsequent problems but they vanished once I fixed it.)

This is very frustrating having an intermittant problem that has (so far) eluded my ability to pinpoint. Unless I find the proverbial smoking gun, I will live in fear of being stranded at the side of the road in a frog-choking downpour.

Ross

 

[yamafitter]

At this point you may want to consider pulling the front cowling & lower fairings off to allow better access to all the electrical bits such as the coils. It will also make it possible to direct water directly at parts like the coils to see if you can induce the problem. With all the plastic out of the way it will also be much easier to get at the various electrical connectors that hide under there to disassemble, clean, grease and re-assemble.

Good Luck.

 

[RossKean]

At this point you may want to consider pulling the front cowling & lower fairings off to allow better access to all the electrical bits such as the coils. It will also make it possible to direct water directly at parts like the coils to see if you can induce the problem. With all the plastic out of the way it will also be much easier to get at the various electrical connectors that hide under there to disassemble, clean, grease and re-assemble.

Good Luck.

Planning on stripping it down this weekend although I might not remove the front cowling (haven't done that before). Is the front a big deal to do once the other stuff is off?

Edit: I found kaitsdad's pictorial on stripping the panels off.

Link

 

[03HiYoSilver]

At this point you may want to consider pulling the front cowling & lower fairings off to allow better access to all the electrical bits such as the coils. It will also make it possible to direct water directly at parts like the coils to see if you can induce the problem. With all the plastic out of the way it will also be much easier to get at the various electrical connectors that hide under there to disassemble, clean, grease and re-assemble.

Good Luck.

...Edit: I found kaitsdad's pictorial on stripping the panels off.

Link

Check your Coils/Wires out since they may be touching something they shouldn't:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=126721&view=findpost&p=714281

 

[BikerGeek99]

I wish I had the know-how to offer some sage advice, Ross, but I defer to the folks around here who actually know what the hell they are talking about.

This is very frustrating having an intermittant problem that has (so far) eluded my ability to pinpoint. Unless I find the proverbial smoking gun, I will live in fear of being stranded at the side of the road in a frog-choking downpour.

I feel your pain. My first bike was a mid-80's Honda Nighthawk. It developed symptoms where the engine would occasionally just die. Sometime it would start right back up and run fine the rest of the day, other times it would die when the wind blew. After it died on me mid-turn in rush-hour traffic, I decided enough was enough and it was time to get 'er looked at.

Turns out the issue with that bike was the ignition module. Replaced that and, other than something causing the battery to drain in a few days, it ran great until I traded it in for my old FJ1200.

Keep the faith, bud.

 

[RossKean]

Now that I am in a position to work on the bike (long weekend), three things happen:

1) We have three days of beautiful sunny riding weather

2) The bike is working perfectly without any issues so its hard to say whether anything I do has had an effect

3) I have TONS of yardwork that has been neglected for far too long and will have to pay some attention to it

I am pretty sure that there is nothing wrong with the tank venting but I will probably bypass the charcoal canister anyway. I'm plugging away at some routine maintenance stuff and probably won't have a go at hosing down the electrical stuff until next week.

Ross

 

[Bustanut joker]

Though I suspect it's electrical, I have to wonder if possibly you are sucking water up via the vent hose..

Hot tank would raise pressure inside.. When it rains the tank would cool possibly creating a vacuum?

I would look deeper than the hoses and see if the check ball in the vent system is somehow not closing off

 

[RossKean]

Though I suspect it's electrical, I have to wonder if possibly you are sucking water up via the vent hose..

Hot tank would raise pressure inside.. When it rains the tank would cool possibly creating a vacuum?

I would look deeper than the hoses and see if the check ball in the vent system is somehow not closing off

I was wondering if I was somehow getting water up the line from the vent on the California canister. Doesn't seem too likely but you never know. I cleaned the gas cap vent and it seems OK. I will bypass the charcoal canister and while I may never know if it was a problem, I can eliminate it for the future. Hosing down the electrics is the next (and possibly last) thing. Gotta take the plastic off anyway to do some wiring for lights and GPS so I will be able to access most of the connectors.

Ross

 

[Bustanut joker]

Taking the plastic off isn't as hard as it seems Ross... As ya said you have info form here and it's pretty darn good.

I would disassemble the gas cap assy and have a look at the check ball, ye never know..

Good luck chasin it down man.

 

[Charlie Hoss]

Ross,

I have the entire fairing off my bike right now, trying to find bad connections/grounds (headlights won't work with engine running after pressing windshield switch). I can't say it was easy, suspect it will be much harder getting it all back together. But, back to your problem, I recall that many years ago, spark plug wires and caps seemed to go bad way too frequently. I happened to notice that at least a couple of the s p wires are "twisted" together rather snugly, wonder if they could be chafing and arcing out when wet. I would be tempted to remove their close contact, clean them up with WD40 and maybe insulate them against rubbing with some split tubing such as fuel or vacuum line. Arcing plug wires would sure cause your symptoms and might be ok when dry.

 

[RossKean]

Ross,

I have the entire fairing off my bike right now, trying to find bad connections/grounds (headlights won't work with engine running after pressing windshield switch). I can't say it was easy, suspect it will be much harder getting it all back together. But, back to your problem, I recall that many years ago, spark plug wires and caps seemed to go bad way too frequently. I happened to notice that at least a couple of the s p wires are "twisted" together rather snugly, wonder if they could be chafing and arcing out when wet. I would be tempted to remove their close contact, clean them up with WD40 and maybe insulate them against rubbing with some split tubing such as fuel or vacuum line. Arcing plug wires would sure cause your symptoms and might be ok when dry.

Hi Charlie

I have been working to try and eliminate the "other" stuff - tank venting, air filter etc. first. I replaced the K&N with an OEM air filter. Bypassing the California stuff too. This weekend, I am going to take off all the plastic and start spraying water around to see if I can induce a failure. Coils and plug wires/caps first. Then various exposed connectors and ignition switch. If no electrical issue, I can hope it was one of the things I "fixed" - charcoal canister or venting. I may never find out if all is now OK until it happens (or doesn't happen) the next extended ride in the rain.

Ross

 

[Canadian FJR]

Charlie and Ross, please keep us updated with your findings.

Canadian FJR