2 bikers down

[black mamba]

I live in Jacksonville, FL. This past week, 2 bikers ( in unrelated instances ) were killed when an auto turned left in front of them. One of the riders was wearing full armor while the other was not. This is a moot point at this juncture as the result is the same....both guys are dead.

My personal riding is done for fun, enjoyment, and relaxation. I still find it fun and largely enjoyable, but the relaxation part of the equation is rapidly evaporating. It's becoming more and more stressful to get out there and mix it up with the cagers. I acknowlege that bikers need to do all the things necessary to make their presence known ( we all know what these are ) but something has got to change in how the responsibility of the cager, in situations like this, is dealt with. In both of these cases, there were witnesses to the accident. The cagers simply turned right in front of the bikers. The prelimanary indication, in each case, is that no charges will be brought against the cagers....they supposedly did not see the biker.

I don't know what it's going to take to bring about significant change in how responsibility is assessed in deals like this.....maybe new laws, or a change in interpretation of existing laws. But this crap of " sorry officer, I didn't see the biker " has got to go. Start putting some of these people in jail for killing someone and maybe, just maybe, the general population of motorists will

start paying more attention to our presence.

 

[radman]

Give the cagers a break for cryin out loud-any idea how tough it is to pay attention with the Nokia in the ear, the Toshiba open and logging in, and Snoop at 135 decibels? Damn bikers shoulda known better than to be on the road during daylight at legal speeds anyway. Kind of helps explain the Turbo Busa videos showin 200 plus mph. Gonna get wasted anyway, might as well have a ball before the big day. :blink:

 

[Toecutter]

I don't know what it's going to take to bring about significant change in how responsibility is assessed in deals like this.....

How about the biker be responsible for knowing that every car will turn into his path and act accordingly defensive? Our bikes stop just about as well as they go. It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you. While you're wishing for us to suddenly become visible to idiot cagers you might as well throw in world peace.

BTW, RIP brothers....

On a somewhat related note and in the context of what Woody the DJ said a couple of weeks ago, Adam Corolla (on his morning radio show) said last week that everybody should ignore red left turn arrows and just go once the oncoming traffic is clear at intersections so equipped. Thanks dickhead. One more way to get killed.

 

[snowmonkey]

I don't know what it's going to take to bring about significant change in how responsibility is assessed in deals like this.....

How about the biker be responsible for knowing that every car will turn into his path and act accordingly defensive? Our bikes stop just about as well as they go. It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you. While you're wishing for us to suddenly become visible to idiot cagers you might as well throw in world peace.

+1

The only way that a motorcycle will be as visible as an automobile, is when it becomes as large as an automobile.

 

[ionbeam]

The only way that a motorcycle will be as visible as an automobile, is when it becomes as large as an automobile

I'm not so sure, people still pull out in front of Goldwings.. :blink:

 

[radman]

People still pull out in front of semis. It's asking a lot for the brain dead amongst us to pay attention when a major part of behind the wheel training is learning how to parallel park.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

this crap of " sorry officer, I didn't see the biker " has got to go. Start putting some of these people in jail for killing someone and maybe, just maybe, the general population of motorists will start paying more attention to our presence.

The American Motorcyclist Association is currently working on a program called "justice for all" to address just this issue. Motorcyclists, bicyclists, joggers, etc. You're right...'sorry, I didn't see them' should not be a valid defense.

Call 1-800-AMA-JOIN to help make your voice heard somewhere besides this forum.

 

[sparky3008]

You never know what these bikers were actually thinking at the time. Were they riding along just enjoying the ride or were they really watching each car and trying to notice and anticipate what the other cagers were going to do? Learning to read what someone might do and assume they don't see you is your best defense. If they are slowing down, looking around whatever it should be a sign for you to either prepare to stop, make yourself seen or just get the hell out of the way.

I know I sometimes find my mind wondering and not doing this and perhaps it will be during this time that I myself get hit.

In all of my CDL class A driving classes that were constantly required they made it a point to tell you that every accident could be avoided and as a professional driver we needed to be aware of any mistakes cage drivers might make and anticipate it.

Motorcycle drivers should have the same defensive training and realize it is your life on the line. No law or consequence to the offender will bring you back.

Have you seen the commercial about insurance or whatever and the couple are talking. A SUV cut in front at a light and they T-bone it, air bags going off everywhere and everyone is ok. On a bike we have nothing to depend on but what is on our minds and being alert. STAY ALERT!!!

 

[Fallen Jim Rides again]

Right on Sparky!

+10

And watch the mirrors, they can get ya from behind too. Trust me.

 

[wheatonFJR]

I appreciate all the thoughts on defensive riding etc, however I'm w/ black mamba on this one.

If a cager turns into you at zero or near zero stopping distance while you are going hwy speeds, you are TOAST.

Nobody wants to be near a drunken driver. Distracted drivers should suffer the same legal penalties if a motorists life is taken or drastically injured. The same issue is at hand; not paying attention to your prime purpose as an operator of a vehicle that can KILL others.

This past fall, while on the way to the Ohio fall ramble, I narrowly escaped the morgue or hospital when a cager pulled out in front of me w/ near zero stopping distance. To this day, I don't know how I did not hit him and go airborne...

 

[black mamba]

Way too many of you people out there either miss the point entirely of my comments about these unfortunate deaths or you just have your head up your ass. It goes without saying that we all need to ride defensively, strive to be seen, and proceed as if all the cagers are out to get us. But these trite remarks don't do a damn thing to address the real problem ......bikers getting wiped out all over the place. It doen't matter how attentively, or inattentively, you're riding when the cager pulls out directly and abruptly in front of you. Agreed, super alert riding helps sometimes but these are instances where you can't possibly avoid what's going to happen, despite your level of awareness. It's by the grace of God that we are able to avoid the instances of collision that we do.

Until these people who are responsible for causing these acts are held accountable for their actions, you won't see an appreciable decline in their numbers. It doesn't do a damn bit of good to say you might as well hope for world peace as to expect a positive change in the situation. Start putting some idiots in jail when their actions kill people and you will start seeing some real positive results.

 

[Bustanut joker]

+2 I learned A whole lotta shit the years I spent driving truck. The manditory safe driving classes were the best thing I ever did. Watch out, their all out ta kill you.

:jester:

 

[Windjammer]

Throughout this thread runs the assumtion that inattentive driving is the problem causing the cagers to hit bikers. It is but ONE cause. There are also the drunk, the legally blind, and those impaired by legally prescribed medication. In FL, where these incidents took place, the population has far more elderly persons than many other states. Not picking on the old folks, but more stringent driver testing and training for ALL drivers would go a long way to improving safety on the roads for everyone. It's WAY too easy to get (and keep) a driver's license.

 

[Thug]

How about making the bike as visible as possible like say...flashing lights (HID's) and a fucking great siren etc... :blink:

 

[Dangerous Dave]

Not picking on the old folks, but more stringent driver testing and training for ALL drivers would go a long way to improving safety on the roads for everyone. It's WAY too easy to get (and keep) a driver's license.

Amen to that! It just doesn't seem prudent that you only have to pass a driving test once to prove you CAN drive, but never again have to prove that you can STILL drive. My mother is unfortunately a perfect example. She'll be 75 in a couple months. I'm sure plenty of 75 year olds are still perfectly capable of driving, but my mother isn't one of them. After totalling 3 cars in 18 months, it wasn't the state that took away her driving priviledges, it was me. I hated to do it and she hated it more, but I couldn't let her back out on the road. It could have just as easily been somebody's family she took out the last time instead of a few guardrails. She never got so much as a letter of warning from the state. This might come back to bite me in the ass someday, but I really believe people should have to prove that they can STILL drive, at least once every decade or two.

The other comments in this thread are very valid. We as motorcyclists MUST ALWAYS (unfortunately) ride like everyone who can pull out in front of us, will pull out in front of us. Aaaand, stiffer and more consistent penalties need to be in place in the judicial system for those who do not treat driving as the priviledge it is. "I didn't see them" is NOT a valid defense.

Read about the AMA "Justice for all" campaign

 

[nusman68]

Black Mamba

I think we all get your point.

-join the AMA; as others have said, they lobby Congress in their "Justice for All" campaign- contribute to the cause...I do. Yeah, I know, not a direct fix for the problem at hand, but at least a step forward. Besides the fact that penalties are ridiculously light for killing another person while operating a motor vehicle, the other major issue (from my perspective) is getting the states to enact tougher DWI/DUI laws. True life example: In my job as a paramedic, I have picked up a few 'habitual offenders' numerous times over a course of years (in my response district, where I live as well) that have wrecked their personal vehicles while stoned on prescription drugs, alcohol or ignoring a chronic medical condition. The fire department (that helps us), doctors that treat these people and other public safety organizations file reports, etc with the state to get these jerks off the road; yet I keep picking them up because the state 'wheels' turn so slowly; it is incredibly frustrating. You find out later that these people *finally* get locked up (for some significant amount of time) but not until after 5 or 6 convictions- - yes, of course, there are exceptions...but apparently their defense attorneys don't live in the same area.. :angry:

I had to shake my head in disgust again recently as I was summoned to jury duty (again, for the 4th time), this time on a drunk driving case. I was on duty, in uniform, planning on going to work after getting dismissed (as I always do), because "I've seen too much". The defendant had (2) prior DWI convictions; his lawyer was doing his song & dance about how there could be 'other reasons' why his client appeared 'impaired' on the police officer's dash cam video tape, and could we 'be open' to other explanations. So what? If not alcohol, some other substance-- what's the difference? the end result is the same- guy trying to beat the rap. Makes me sick.

Defense attorney finally gets around to me..."I bet you've seen lots of drunk drivers in your profession"

"Yes I have"

30 minutes later I was dismissed, and went on in to work.

Rant over.

 

[sparky3008]

Way too many of you people out there either miss the point entirely of my comments about these unfortunate deaths or you just have your head up your ass. It goes without saying that we all need to ride defensively, strive to be seen, and proceed as if all the cagers are out to get us. But these trite remarks don't do a damn thing to address the real problem ......bikers getting wiped out all over the place. It doen't matter how attentively, or inattentively, you're riding when the cager pulls out directly and abruptly in front of you. Agreed, super alert riding helps sometimes but these are instances where you can't possibly avoid what's going to happen, despite your level of awareness. It's by the grace of God that we are able to avoid the instances of collision that we do.
Until these people who are responsible for causing these acts are held accountable for their actions, you won't see an appreciable decline in their numbers. It doesn't do a damn bit of good to say you might as well hope for world peace as to expect a positive change in the situation. Start putting some idiots in jail when their actions kill people and you will start seeing some real positive results.

Black Mamba,

I hope you didn't take my comments as going against yours. I wasn't. I do however believe what I was trained and that is that most if not all accidents can be avoided. On this website there is a video of a motorcyclist being hit by someone turning in front of them goin into a gas station.

If you really wanted to tear that video apart look at how fast that motorcycle was going. An object with so little width is almost impossible to see. I my self have almost missed seeing bikes oncoming because they have such a small profile. It is our job as motorcyclists to make sure oncoming traffic such as this see's us. We have all been taught how to make ourselves seen but I rarely see motorcyclists actually practicing them.

Motorcyclist sometimes have the idea that they have the right of way or they belong on the road too and forget that all that means nothing when you are dead.

In one of my motorcycle safety courses the instructor was talking about making ourselves seen. In one of his questions he asked about a car about to turn in front of the motorcycle at an intersection. He had a few scenarios, but the one I answered was to change lanes in the intersection. A girl immediately spoke up and said, "but changing lanes in the intersection is illegal". I replied, "True, but I would gladly accept the ticket if an officer really would give me one seeing what happened just to know that I am alive to pay the ticket."

Legislate all you want for punishment but I don't believe it will help as I don't believe people do it intentionally. They honestly don't see us and it is our responsibility to make ourselves seen not excuses...

 

[sparky3008]

Just to analyze one point.

Start putting some idiots in jail when their actions kill people and you will start seeing some real positive results.

DWI/DUI in Maryland result in immediate loss of your license. The penalties are pretty harsh and the amount of money to fight a DWI here is pretty stiff. I don't think it has really made a big impact on the amount of DWI's.

People in these types of cases are real criminals they make a conscious decision to drink and drive.

People who make these split second mistakes and hit a motorcyclists are not. They aren't driving along saying to themselves, if I hit a motorcycle today I won't get any punishment, BAM!!! They certainly aren't going to be thinking about consequenses either because it isn't something they do on purpose.

Now if you tell me a story of a crazy driver purposely chasing down 2 bikers and running them off the road and killing them in road rage. These bastards should be hung from the city overpass for everyone to see.

Motorcyclists have to be better drivers than other types and many are not. My friend just bought an 03 Harley used from a guy who bought it as his first bike and only put 850 miles on it in 2.5 years. I have seen guys coming out of BMW parking lots on their new 20 thousand dollar bike that can't keep it running because they don't know how to even do the basics.

Another guy I knew about 15 years ago who also had more money than brains went out and bought a Harley because all his friends had one. Never ridden and the first turn he made went down.

I don't know how to say any better than I have that we have to be better than average drivers and we have to stay alert. Riding motorcycles on the street is not like riding a bicycle in a park. As soon as we start that engine we take our lives in our hands. It is our job to be as well trained and as well informed with the latest in defensive driving techiques and you maybe surprised to find how many people don't know what that even means...

 

[FJRottie]

Not picking on the old folks, but more stringent driver testing and training for ALL drivers would go a long way to improving safety on the roads for everyone. It's WAY too easy to get (and keep) a driver's license.

x 1000 on that.

People suck and they can't drive. I just love the comment, "I've been driving for 30 years, I know what I am doing". That is being complacent and full of tripe.

Seniors must be retested. They can be dangerous.

New drivers need harder testing and more education.

I'm all for strong penalties with blatent negligence. Cell phones in vehicles should be illegal.

Anyway, driving is a priviledge, not a right. Pay attention.