Changed CCT but now won't start --HELP

[FJR98008]

Well, today I decided to change my CCT due to a rattling noise by the cam chain area. My 03' FJR has about 25,xxx miles, has always started right up and smooth riding, synthetic oil change regularly, as a local firefighter, I've takened it on service runs to OR and CA to assist in forest fires, never any problems; BUT, today after I removed and installed the new CCT, the bike cranks but won't turn over. No fault codes in the diagnostic readout. Changed the spark plugs just in case, but to no avail. Just cranks, like it's trying to start with all normal dash readouts. The only funny/scary thing was that after I had changed the plugs and tried to start it, it backfired and then the engine went right back to trying to start.

If the cam chain jumped a tooth etc. thus causing the engine to just crank but not start-

1. are my valves now bent or

2. can I remove the valve cover and cam cover (first I need to learn how to do this), set everthing to TDC, install a new chain and am good to go.. or

3. bite the bullet and pay the pro's.

Any suggestions are much appreciated.

Thank you,

Duke

 

[HaulinAshe]

I'm sorry I can't sugarcoat this response for you, really!

When you remove the CCT, it's very easy for the cam chain to "bunch up" at the crank sprocket IF... you did not use wire ties to secure the cam chain to the crank sprocket before removing the CCT.

Did you remove the right side cover over the cam chain and tie it? If not, you will be removing the camshafts and re-doing the entire timing. Or you will be paying someone else to do it and praying nothing is bent/damaged.

The FJR will tolerate a 1-tooth error in timing without damaging valves, but it typically will run with that error, albeit poorly. I don't think 2-teeth off is survivable.

 

[HaulinAshe]

...2. can I remove the valve cover and cam cover (first I need to learn how to do this), set everthing to TDC, install a new chain and am good to go.. or

...

I should answer your Q2 specifically.

Yes you can, but it won't be simple. The timing tends to change on the crank-to-exhaust timing, and that's the hardest change to make. Generally, the intake cam must be removed and the exhaust cam lifted at an angle, in order to get enough chain slack to re-time at the crank sprocket to exhaust cam section.

If you seek Yami dealership help, be prepared to tow the bike someplace. Finding a "pro" that can do the job correctly has proven difficult for many locations.

Personally, I find the FJR one of, if not the MOST difficult motorcycle to valve time that I've ever dealt with. It's just so damn hard to see all the marks and move things predictably.

 

[FJR98008]

Well it looks like I'll be redoing the timing. I've done this on a car but never on a motorcycle. Any suggestions, tips, tricks of the trade,...

Thank you,

Duke

 

[FJR98008]

...2. can I remove the valve cover and cam cover (first I need to learn how to do this), set everthing to TDC, install a new chain and am good to go.. or

...

I should answer your Q2 specifically.

Yes you can, but it won't be simple. The timing tends to change on the crank-to-exhaust timing, and that's the hardest change to make. Generally, the intake cam must be removed and the exhaust cam lifted at an angle, in order to get enough chain slack to re-time at the crank sprocket to exhaust cam section.

If you seek Yami dealership help, be prepared to tow the bike someplace. Finding a "pro" that can do the job correctly has proven difficult for many locations.

Personally, I find the FJR one of, if not the MOST difficult motorcycle to valve time that I've ever dealt with. It's just so damn hard to see all the marks and move things predictably.

Thank you HaulinAshe! Sounds like I've just inherited a big headache. I'm mechanically inclined but this seems a little overwhelming.

 

[HaulinAshe]

Use an angled/dental mirror, flashlight and straight edge to reference the cam sprocket timing marks. There's a lot of posts and help already posted here. You should search and study carefully.

Tie wraps are your friend. Get the crank to exhaust timing correct first, tie wrap the chain to the exhaust cam and BOTH sides of the crank sprocket. Then move on to the intake cam timing. Keep everything tie-wrapped until you get the CCT re-installed and tensioned.

 

[Constant Mesh]

I don't totally agree with HA. If the intake side chain guide stayed put at the bottom near the crankshaft sprocket I doubt the chain moved on the sprocket. I hope you properly released the tensioner after you installed it.

 

[FJRBluesman]

Is this a problem only on 2003's?

I don't recall reading on any CCT posts that you had to tie wrap up the chain to anything. I did hear of doing that for valve adjustments, but not CCT's.

As long as you released the CCT plunger and put tension back on the chain, I would think it would not have that much slack to jump a tooth at the crank. Maybe it can. :blink:

 

[FJR98008]

FJRBluesman,

I haven't been able to get this disgusting feeling out of my stomach, fearing that my FJR has had it's ride...Bluesman, I'm praying you're right because as of now, I'm in a fog as to what to do.

I've found posts from Howie on how to do the timing- looks very technical, but I'm having trouble finding a post for the valve cover removal. Any suggestions??

 

[FJR98008]

I don't totally agree with HA. If the intake side chain guide stayed put at the bottom near the crankshaft sprocket I doubt the chain moved on the sprocket. I hope you properly released the tensioner after you installed it.

Constant Mesh,

First thank you for chiming in. I'm looking for any help I can get and am willing to take a crash course in learning. .. Yes, I did release the tension on the CCT.

 

[FJRBluesman]

I don't totally agree with HA. If the intake side chain guide stayed put at the bottom near the crankshaft sprocket I doubt the chain moved on the sprocket. I hope you properly released the tensioner after you installed it.

Constant Mesh,
First thank you for chiming in. I'm looking for any help I can get and am willing to take a crash course in learning. .. Yes, I did release the tension on the CCT.

I think what CM meant was, did you make sure the CCT plunger released and properly put tension to the chain. The new CCT can be locked (so to speak) so that just merely installing it and pulling the "T" that holds the CCT tensioner plunger all the way in, it still may not properly release. You can turn the CCT I believe counter clock wise (CCW) to get it to release. You then turn it CW (retracting plunger in) slightly to feel the tension.
If you did not check to make absolutely sure the CCT plunger was released (plunger out applying pressure on the cam chain), and you then tried starting it, you may have issues. Re-timing sounds like it will need to be done.

Go to this post that ionbeam clarified for me on the workings of the CCT plunger, I believe on the second page I asked the question.

 

[FJR98008]

I don't totally agree with HA. If the intake side chain guide stayed put at the bottom near the crankshaft sprocket I doubt the chain moved on the sprocket. I hope you properly released the tensioner after you installed it.

Constant Mesh,
First thank you for chiming in. I'm looking for any help I can get and am willing to take a crash course in learning. .. Yes, I did release the tension on the CCT.

I think what CM meant was, did you make sure the CCT plunger released and properly put tension to the chain. The new CCT can be locked (so to speak) so that just merely installing it and pulling the "T" that holds the CCT tensioner plunger all the way in, it still may not properly release. You can turn the CCT I believe counter clock wise (CCW) to get it to release. You then turn it CW (retracting plunger in) slightly to feel the tension.
If you did not check to make absolutely sure the CCT plunger was released (plunger out applying pressure on the cam chain), and you then tried starting it, you may have issues. Re-timing sounds like it will need to be done.

Go to this post that ionbeam clarified for me on the workings of the CCT plunger, I believe on the second page I asked the question.

FJRBluesman,

As I was puttng the new CCT into its' place, I noticed it was a little difficult because the two bolts that hold the CCT barely had enough thread to catch, so I pressed it in enough for the threads to catch and continued tightening the two bolts. Once that was done, I turned the CCT Cw to release the plunger. It felt like the plunger was stuck so I did the CCW-CW, CCW-CW several times. Honestly, it felt like the plunger was already pressed against something. Anyhow, I tried starting it and then noticed that the plunger finally released out. Since then I haven't been able to start the bike.

Duke

 

[3dogs]

You can check to see if the cam has jumped a tooth without taking anything apart. Here's how.

You'll need some vacuum line (needs to fit over the throttle body sync ports) and some vacuum tees (availalbe at an auto parts store).

1. Connect enough vac line/vac tees so that all 4 TB porst are connected together but leave a place to connect a vacuum gauge.

2. Connect a vacuum gauge so that it's connect to all the Throttle bodies (you are trying to read the intake pulses from each cylinder)

3. With the throttle closed, crank the engine and watch the needle on the vac gauge.

4. On a good engine (one that has compression and proper valve timing) the needle should pulse each time a cylinder's intake valve opens. The needle is pulsing in response to the lowered pressure in the cylinder as the piston moves downward. If the cam is out of time with the crank you will get no pulses on the gauge needle. If the needle is pulsing evenly then the cam/crank are in time and their should be no MECHANICAL reason that it should not start.

NOTE: This test assumes that there are no intake runner leaks (test won't work or you'll get weird results if there are)

You can also check for individual cylinder sealing problems using this methood. If the needle pulse unevenly then one (or more) of the cylinders is not sealing (valve not seating, blow head gasket, piston with a hole in it!). This test won't work if the cam is out of time.

This is a common way (used to be anyway) to check for a cam that has jumped a tooth--a common problem on engine with rubber timing belts on automobiles. Owner's manual states "Change your timing belt at 70,000 miles" but the owner waits until the enigne wont' start and often times the out of time cam/crank bends the valves.

Also I looked at the cam chain parts diagram here (you'll have to enter year/model/camchain) and don't see how the timing chain could jump a tooth at the crank sprocket. Even with the CCT removed there is tension on the timing chain between the crank, ex cam and intake cam. I don't think that there is much room (or none at all) where the chain and damper meet at the crank sprocket. The timing chain would have to move a lot to skip a tooth on the crank--don't really think that this can happen--but with the fuck do I know!!

I have changed my CCT and did not tie-wrap anything--just removed the CCT and put the new one in.

 

[Geezer]

FJRBluesman,
As I was puttng the new CCT into its' place, I noticed it was a little difficult because the two bolts that hold the CCT barely had enough thread to catch, so I pressed it in enough for the threads to catch and continued tightening the two bolts. Once that was done, I turned the CCT Cw to release the plunger. It felt like the plunger was stuck so I did the CCW-CW, CCW-CW several times. Honestly, it felt like the plunger was already pressed against something. Anyhow, I tried starting it and then noticed that the plunger finally released out. Since then I haven't been able to start the bike.

Duke

The first thing to do is take the cover off the right side and take a look.

 

[Peter Murray]

FJRBluesman,
I haven't been able to get this disgusting feeling out of my stomach, fearing that my FJR has had it's ride...Bluesman, I'm praying you're right because as of now, I'm in a fog as to what to do.

I've found posts from Howie on how to do the timing- looks very technical, but I'm having trouble finding a post for the valve cover removal. Any suggestions??

https://www.fjr1300.info/howto/valveadj.html

Try this..

 

[Fred W]

Anyhow, I tried starting it and then noticed that the plunger finally released out.

This is bad. If you cranked the engine with no tension on the chain, it is most certainly out of time, and most certainly has bent the valves.

Does it seem like the engine is turning over faster than normal now? That would indicate the valves have been bent and are stuck open (no compression).

 

[HaulinAshe]

*** PLEASE EVERYONE! READ THIS WARNING! ***

I've seen this condition personally several times. That's why NOW I insist on tie-wrapping the cam chain on both sides of the crank sprocket BEFORE changing the CCT. If nothing moves while you have the old CCT out, everything goes fine. But if the Intake-side chain guide moves (as his obviously did) the resulting slack collects at the crank gear and a timing change results as soon as anything is bumped or rotated.

I know exactly the CCT bolt problem he's describing. It's caused when the Intake side guide backs away (after the old CCT is removed) and allows the chain to go slack. When the new CCT is installed, the chain/guide can't return to position and allow enough room for the fully-retracted new CCT to properly seat in the hole. If he went ahead and tightened the CCT bolts without lifting the slack chain and returning the guide to position, it may have damaged the chain.

That condition is caused by slack in the cam chain that has accumulated at the crank sprocket. You all are correct in saying that enough slack cannot be accumulated to allow the chain to jump time. BUT... if that slack is allowed to accumulate at the crank sprocket and then anything is moved, it will jump time one tooth at the crank sprocket.

The resulting timing change leaves the cams in time with each other and one tooth off-time from the crank. It does not (typically) damage anything. The engine is nearly impossible to start. It may start WOT but will not idle. Re-timing requires both cams be removed to create enough chain slack.

 

[FJRBluesman]

As I was puttng the new CCT into its' place, I noticed it was a little difficult because the two bolts that hold the CCT barely had enough thread to catch, so I pressed it in enough for the threads to catch and continued tightening the two bolts. Once that was done, I turned the CCT Cw to release the plunger. It felt like the plunger was stuck so I did the CCW-CW, CCW-CW several times. Honestly, it felt like the plunger was already pressed against something. Anyhow, I tried starting it and then noticed that the plunger finally released out. Since then I haven't been able to start the bike.Duke

Duke - From this post, it sounds like you may have installed the CCT with the plunger fully extended. You then may have possibly backed off (retracted) the CCT plunger and it had no tension to the cam chain. The bolts have plenty of meat to go onto the CCT and head when the plunger is fully retracted in the CCT, the way it was shipped OEM with the little "T" device to hold it in.
I'm not sure if it's possible to over stress the cam chain by the way you installed it, but it sounds like something happened if indeed you did install the CCT with the plunger fully extended. If the plunger was retracted into the CCT, and you tried starting it. Then I can totaly see it jumping a tooth or three.

Turning the CCT CW retracts the plunger back into the CCT, no pressure on cam chain. You have the old CCT out see how it retracts and extends and note the direction.

I'm not getting a warm fuzzy for your situation now.

 

[HaulinAshe]

I don't totally agree with HA. If the intake side chain guide stayed put at the bottom near the crankshaft sprocket I doubt the chain moved on the sprocket. I hope you properly released the tensioner after you installed it.

Until he subsequently mentioned that the new CCT would not seat all the way, I was wide open to being wrong. But I've BTDT so many times before, I know exactly what happened.

He may be in worse shape than I can imagine, because I've never proceeded with the new CCT install once I realized the Intake-side guide had moved and the chain went slack. If the new CCT doesn't seat freely and properly into the casting hole, that's when you "stop right there" and go searching for the problem.

Since he's all the way across the country, about all I can do now is wish him luck.