FJR1300 Middle Drive Failure

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Even if heat was the result of failure here, wouldn't this area still have relatively clean engine oil flowing through it?
Exactly so.... that is my question as well....

I dunno if the Service Manual's schematic of the oil galleries will reveal how this particular area (driving shaft splines and driven gear splines internal to the middle gear) is lubricated. Yes, we assume that this entire assembly is oil-bathed, but how (specifically) are these internal mating surfaces get lubed is a question I haven't seen an answer to yet....

 
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bbbbbuuuut....

aren't those two pieces bolted together so they in theory don't move.

A failure of heat treatment for proper hardness in order?

 
bbbbbuuuut....
aren't those two pieces bolted together so they in theory don't move.
Splined....not bolted. They're not supposed to move rotationally. But movement longitudinally is OK.

Spline failure is very uncommon. Remembering long ago to my farm days and listening to dear ol' Dad recount his stories of catastrophic failures involving tractors hitting buried rocks and parts exploding like grendades. (I can smell the napalm!)

I can't imagine that's the equivalent here unless Tanji was riding down the road and somebody shoved a fencepost through his rim while at nominal speed.

The other was wear related and was either lubrication problems (meaning somebody forgot to grease the spline) or "bad metal". The latter is probably a farmer colloquial for substandard heat treating.

 
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Well, well, well, and here all this time I though Dean had been *faking* his FJR breakdown just so he could ride "bitch" on the back of Lisa L's 'Wing to Gerlach and back.

I too am puzzled at the failure. As far as I can tell - all dems parts are internal to the crankcase and constantly bathed in oil. Weird.

Luckily, seems to be a fluke. Perhaps materials. Perhaps tolerances. Perhaps an anomoly in the manufacturing process. Maybe aliens.

TWN does raise a good point with the motoman break-in. I would not do this on any of my vehicles, it just doesn't make any sense to me, I mean you only have to take it easy for the first 1000 miles, that's nothing. There's no doubt that there's a lot of stress being put on all new parts throughout the engine/drive train, when they have had no time to seat in against one-another. I wonder if Motoman is so confident in his procedure that if proven it causes any long term failure will be willing to foot the bill for needed repairs? There's no doubt that as the miles have added up the transmission has gotten very smooth on my bike as compared to new.
I'm not here to argue the pro's and con's of this break-in procedure, just pointing out a possibility to the long term failure. I'll save this fight for another thread. :D

It could also be one bad part in a batch/or poor assembly and Dean unfortunately got it in his engine. I'm not concerned in the slightest about this problem for the reasons mentioned above by Warchild. The FJR power train is damn near bullet proof and has proven itself time and again for many years under extreme riding conditions.
For cryin out loud! Not you too! Give me a break. I've got 92,000 HARD ridden miles on my 04 which just so happened to get the Motoman break-in. That bitch of an FJR stills rides like a raped-ape. How many other FJRs out there have seen a GPS measured 160mph?

With as many people who have done the Motoman break in around here, if there was something about it that was that detrimental, we would know it by now. The fact is, with today's technology, I don't think it matters one bit how you break it in as long as you don't totally abuse it.

Please, don't encourage our gerbil loving friend and feed the hysteria.

Ya damned wanker!

:fuck:

 
Well, well, well, and here all this time I though Dean had been *faking* his FJR breakdown just so he could ride "bitch" on the back of Lisa L's 'Wing to Gerlach and back.
I too am puzzled at the failure. As far as I can tell - all dems parts are internal to the crankcase and constantly bathed in oil. Weird.

Luckily, seems to be a fluke. Perhaps materials. Perhaps tolerances. Perhaps an anomoly in the manufacturing process. Maybe aliens.

TWN does raise a good point with the motoman break-in. I would not do this on any of my vehicles, it just doesn't make any sense to me, I mean you only have to take it easy for the first 1000 miles, that's nothing. There's no doubt that there's a lot of stress being put on all new parts throughout the engine/drive train, when they have had no time to seat in against one-another. I wonder if Motoman is so confident in his procedure that if proven it causes any long term failure will be willing to foot the bill for needed repairs? There's no doubt that as the miles have added up the transmission has gotten very smooth on my bike as compared to new.

I'm not here to argue the pro's and con's of this break-in procedure, just pointing out a possibility to the long term failure. I'll save this fight for another thread. :D

It could also be one bad part in a batch/or poor assembly and Dean unfortunately got it in his engine. I'm not concerned in the slightest about this problem for the reasons mentioned above by Warchild. The FJR power train is damn near bullet proof and has proven itself time and again for many years under extreme riding conditions.
For cryin out loud! Not you too! Give me a break. I've got 92,000 HARD ridden miles on my 04 which just so happened to get the Motoman break-in. That bitch of an FJR stills rides like a raped-ape. How many other FJRs out there have seen a GPS measured 160mph?

With as many people who have done the Motoman break in around here, if there was something about it that was that detrimental, we would know it by now. The fact is, with today's technology, I don't think it matters one bit how you break it in as long as you don't totally abuse it.

Please, don't encourage our gerbil loving friend and feed the hysteria.

Ya damned wanker!

:fuck:
The point I'm trying to make here is that I wished that this engine had been broken in by the book, and not something that the manufacturer doesn't recommend. How can you draw a conclusion that it's not related? Because you did the same thing? It proves nothing IMO. And Dean got to ride the littlest bitch of all back from Gerlach, you know, that lightly used low mile '04 FJR parked at Bruno's. :lol:

BTW - you ride like a bitch! :fuck:

 
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Ummm.....Skyway...Skooter.....please take it down a notch.

I think I know you're just playin', but if I'm starting to wonder...I gotta expect some of the gawkers in this thread won't know the difference.

You wanna play WWF and slam each other with fold-up chair emoticons--you should probably try out the PM feature.

 
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The point I'm trying to make here is that I wished that this engine had been broken in by the book, and not something that the manufacturer doesn't recommend.
Ack! Didn't you pay attention to any of the old MotoMan threads?

Bueller?

The Motoman break-in DOES NOT GO AGAINST YAMAHA'S RECOMMENDED BREAK-IN PROCEDURE.

Yammie's break-in procedure is pretty freaking general and vague. You could break-in your FJR in all kinds of ways - hard, soft, or even like a faggoty-assed Welchman, and still be following their weak-assed, lacking in any detail guidelines. So how does "following their break-in" allow you to draw any useful conclusions? Well.....I'll answer that. It doesn't!!!!!

So there! Dean's FJR was broken in "by the book", or more specifically, the lame-assed book, and didn't do anything "the manufacturer doesn't recommend."

But that's ok. You and the 'Nut ride wike wittle girls. So if you want to break your FJRs in like limp-wristed choads that's fine by me. After all, this is a free country.

:fuck:

Ummm.....Skyway...Skooter.....please take it down a notch.
I think I know you're just playin', but if I'm starting to wonder...I gotta expect some of the gawkers in this thread won't know the difference.

You wanna play WWF and slam each other with fold-up chair emoticons--you should probably try out the PM feature.

To hell with that. This place needs some Christmas cheer! :lol:

And for anyone else newer around here, hell yes, that Welch Wanker Skiwi is my good bud and we is just having some fun. :glare:

 
Ummm.....Skyway...Skooter.....please take it down a notch.
I think I know you're just playin', but if I'm starting to wonder...I gotta expect some of the gawkers in this thread won't know the difference.

You wanna play WWF and slam each other with fold-up chair emoticons--you should probably try out the PM feature.

I just teasing the skoot, thats the only way I can get him to come out of his shell lately. :D

Sorry Iggy, I didn't realise I had taken it up a notch? :unsure:

 
stills rides like a raped-ape.
worthless.gif


 
The point I'm trying to make here is that I wished that this engine had been broken in by the book, and not something that the manufacturer doesn't recommend.
Ack! Didn't you pay attention to any of the old MotoMan threads?

The Motoman break-in DOES NOT GO AGAINST YAMAHA'S RECOMMENDED BREAK-IN PROCEDURE.

Yammie's break-in procedure is pretty freaking general and vague.
I did see the threads but choose not to follow like a lemming. :D

And since you mention the pretty vague wording in the yammy manual, I'm quite sure it didn't read anything along the lines of the Motoman technique and how could you interpret his methods from it? Just because the manual doesn't say "make sure you don't break it in with the Motoman method?"

Quote from Motoman site: What's The Best Way To Break-In A New Engine ?? The Short Answer: Run it Hard !

Show me where you interpreted this information and solid evidence of it's benifits? You read it somewhere on the Internet so it must be true, eh? :D

And for anyone else newer around here, hell yes, that Welch Wanker Skiwi is my good bud and we is just having some fun. :glare:
Yes this is just in fun, but my previous comment about said riding style still stands. :D

 
That bitch of an FJR stills rides like a raped-ape.
So, that pathetic lump of metal, plastic and rubber languishing hopelessly in your garage is a 'raped ape'? Am I to therefore assume that you deliberately slammed it down to the playa's surface just so that you could do untold and wholly unnatural things to the machine?

You freakin' perv!

Oh, and the Motoman thing? Jestal concurs with me and skyway so :fuck: and the raped ape you rode in on!

:grin:

 
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So, that pathetic lump of metal, plastic and rubber languishing hopelessly in your garage is a 'raped ape'? Am I to therefore assume that you deliberately slammed it down to the playa's surface just so that you could do untold and wholly unnatural things to the machine?
It languish not. Has been my daily rider for a week now, and will be taking me to San Diego tomorrow. And that's still with almost no repairs completed. Yup. Heading to San Dog and back with blown fork seals, dented gas tank, skewered handlebars and about a hundred other little things. Still rides better than my other 04 with 9,000 miles.

And as for Jestal...........he don't know dick. Don't you know he is just some pimply faced 13 year old 'puter geek pulling a fast one on all of us? Heck, next thing you know he will be telling us synthetic oil is a waste of money.

:lol:

 
:lol:
How long you in SD? Maybe I'll ride down just to kick your ass or sumpin'.
Only in town for a day. Ride in Wednesday, depart Friday morning at zero-dark-thirty. Elderly grand-mom needs some assistance moving into highest level of assisted living. Bummer.

It's too bad I won't be there longer - I am in need of an ass kickin. That's one of those things you just can never get enough of.

Now, there is a little motocyclismo/culinary event going on in your neck of the woods on December 30. I am trying to figure out how to make that, remote possibility that it is. Perhaps I can get Iggy to go with me and make sure I don't crash. :eek:

I'll send you some info.

 
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Am I to therefore assume that you deliberately slammed it down to the playa's surface just so that you could do untold and wholly unnatural things to the machine?
I tried talking to her when I road her back in after the playa incident. She was pretty shook up, but with Skoot out on the playa wounded she opened up a little to me. I could tell by the way her PHID was bouncing around that she's been in an abusive relationship for years with him. I wouldn't say that Skoot goes out into his garage to kick her for no reason, but those crooked handlebars and blown forks seals told me volumes about their relationship.

If she's smart she'll run away from Skoot, get painted Galaxy Blue, and change her name in the FJR Relocation Program. Even with a dent in the tank she's still a pretty good looker and needs to find a rider that washes her after every commute and treat her the way an FJR should be treated.

The new one he has? Well, she's a ho out of Fresno that did table dances for gasoline, and has a habit of snorting nothing but the best synthetic. They deserve each other.

 
I have it on good authority: that many more engine/running gear problems have reared their ugly heads, m/c industry-wide, over decades of observation, with careful/slow/mature riders than with young/aggressive riders.

Concerning the other issue: I once observed a problem with a Honda splined shaft that wasn't properly heat-treated. All discussion with the area tech-rep proved fruitless and a new (expensive) part had to be ordered. All associated parts were in fine shape as they should've been due the the engine's low miles. BMWs have had a huge clutch spline/ trans input shaft spline disease. Manifested by the poor quality (clutch hub) spline completely going away and some damage to the trans input spline -- they, of course, don't run in oil.

I'd vote this a (rare) case of poor heat-treating.

 
I have it on good authority: that many more engine/running gear problems have reared their ugly heads, m/c industry-wide, over decades of observation, with careful/slow/mature riders than with young/aggressive riders.Concerning the other issue: I once observed a problem with a Honda splined shaft that wasn't properly heat-treated. All discussion with the area tech-rep proved fruitless and a new (expensive) part had to be ordered. All associated parts were in fine shape as they should've been due the the engine's low miles. BMWs have had a huge clutch spline/ trans input shaft spline disease. Manifested by the poor quality (clutch hub) spline completely going away and some damage to the trans input spline -- they, of course, don't run in oil.

I'd vote this a (rare) case of poor heat-treating.
+2

bbbbbuuuut....
aren't those two pieces bolted together so they in theory don't move.

A failure of heat treatment for proper hardness in order?
+1

 
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From what I can tell from the pictures this is a pretty odd failure.....

From the lubrication standpoint: Consider that the gear teeth faces and the splines are lubed by the same lubricant (or supposed lack there-of) that the splines would be lubed by. Since the gear teeth faces take FAR more lubricant related grief than the splines do (sliding contact versus no relative motion) and the gear teeth faces look absolutely perfect I think you can safely rule out any sort of lube failure. In fact, I would be pretty certain it is not lube related.

From the condition of the splines it would certainly look like poor metalurgy...i.e..lack of or poor heat treat... IF only one set of the splines had fatigued away. Since both are fretted heavily to the point of dissappearing it would seem that the distress was equal on both sets of splines thus implying that both sets of splines had poor metalurgy. Not likely. If metalurgy was the top culprit I would suspect (from previous failures of gears and such I have seen) that only the part with the poor metalurgy would have the problem or be much more damaged than the other. So...for the moment I would rule out metalurgy.

I am not sure of how the unit bolts together but I can suppose that the gear is clamped quite firmly to the inner support bearing race. That type of gear requires proper geometry during install such that the "depth" of the gear is critical to properly mesh with the longitudinal shaft gear. So it would not be just "floating" on the splines. The depth of the gear relative to the case would have to be fixed by clamping to the inner race of the bearing that seats in the case. So...there shouldn't be any relative motion of the gear on the splines per se. It should be firmly clamped up in an actual press situation so the motion on the splines would be virtually zero.....unless....the nut were not tightened sufficiently. If that were the case then the gear could fret around on the splines and wear and fatigue them over time and lots of miles.

More evidence of this is on the inner face of the gear. Look at where the anti-rotation washer rests against the inner face. See any shiny polishing? I don't. If that washer were firmly clamped against the gear by the nut (properly tensioned) then I would expect to see some pretty shiny material from the washer moving around on the gear....or the gear moving around relative to the washer per se.... as the splines fretted and there was more and more free movement of the gear relative to the shaft. More possible evidence that the nut was not tight enough.

Since this seems to be a total one off failure you might suspect something like a loose nut (or just inadequately torqued/tensioned nut) rather than a metalurgical problem. When things like poor heat treats happen it NEVER EVER happens to just one part. Never. LOL. Loose nuts can happen on a one-off basis.

My vote based purely on speculation and absolutely no knowlege is that........................ the nut on the drive gear that failed was not properly tensioned at the factory thus allowing the gear to float around on the splines that were not designed for the type of drive system and that wore the splines and caused the shaft and gear splines to wear and fret evenly and fail at the same time.

A right angle drive gear like that has considerable thrust from the gear teeth face which would try to constantly "rock" the gear on the splines if it were floating and "loose" on the splines thus causing the type of wear and fretting shown. A gear with that type of side loading would never be designed to float on the splines simply from a spline longevity standpoint (see what happens when it does). That type of gear would always be "nailed" to the shaft in a tightly compressed joint via a nut with a lot of compression on the joint.

Probably the gear/splines would have failed much sooner but for the excellent lubrication it was receiving....LOL

I cannot imagine that the motoman breakin procedure (or any break in procedure) would cause or influence this failure at 70K miles. If the gear teeth faces had scuffed and failed at 5000 miles then the breakin might be suspected from overloading "green" gears but the splines are not really influenced by the lube and not a "moving" joint that would be affect by load like that for breakin. Splines that do not move do not "break in" per se so the heavy loading while green wouldn't hurt them. Might hurt the gears, though, but since they are fine I would eliminate the breakin as a suspect.

Understand, though, that harsh breakin does have an effect on hypoid gears (such as the rear end gears in cars) and the load bearing or torque loading capability of the axle goes up at least double after breakin. MANY MANY motor homes have been bought in places like Phoenix or Denver, loaded to GVW while green and then driven up a steep grade at full load....only to fail the ring and pinion due to excess heat from lack of breakin and subsequent lack of load bearing capability while green. Excess heat always shows up when this happens.

My 78 XS1100 has over 108,000 on it and the middle gear set has never uttered a peep. It is lubricated separately with gear oil like the final drive as mentioned and the oil is always clean and fine. So, I expect the XS1100 failure is a lot like this one on the FJR.....a one off. That is what I am trying to make myself believe, anyway.....LOL.

As long as we are on the subject:

2002075445624290863_rs.jpg


The item in the picture that looks like a gear was a gear until 90% of the teeth fretted away. The remaining "fence" of nubs along one side is what the gear teeth looked like. That area was not in engagement with the mating gear (by design) so they were not fretted away. The mating portion of the gear fretted completely away. This was top gear in a Hewland gear box from a March Indy car circa 1985 or so. Poor metallurgy on the failed gear was the culprit...both metallurgy and heat treat, in fact. Shouldn't have happened. The mating gear looked perfectly fine despite the total destruction of the gear in the picture. The mating gear had the correct material and heat treat.

Bonus points....identify the source of the "prop" in the background.... :p :p :p

 
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Yamaha's break in procedure just says no EXTENDED rides over 5000rpm's. Doesn't say anything about not going over 5000 rpm just no extended time there. So Motoman says nothing different with its heat cycles.

Richard at Cycle Imports in Soquel, Ca. near Santa Cruz breaks a lot of his customers bikes in on his dyno the same as the motoman except on the dyno. He just tuned a stock ZX-14 to over 200mph on the salt flats. He also installs and does work for Dale Walker of Holeshots.

So argue if you must but i will believe results over some tech writers rendition of a break in method.

 
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