road runner
Well-known member
+1
The only thing we maybe should have done different is to start another thread for fixing or preventing the problem.
FJRF009.0: Ground Spider Research
- Thread starter bramfrank
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The only thing we maybe should have done different is to start another thread for fixing or preventing the problem.
It's never too late. Maybe a PM to one of the admins would get them to split this thread into the "documentary" and the "repair" threads? I'm not sure if it's even possible, but doesn't hurt to ask...
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road runner
Well-known member
bramfrank
BramFrank
Comment;
Solder is not allowed to be used on aircraft wiring harnesses nor in military rolling stock or on boats or racing cars because it is very brittle. Compression fittings only.
You might want to keep this in mind when you are hacking off the connectors on your harnesses.
Me? I'm waiting for the official fix from Yamaha.
Solder is not allowed to be used on aircraft wiring harnesses nor in military rolling stock or on boats or racing cars because it is very brittle. Compression fittings only.
You might want to keep this in mind when you are hacking off the connectors on your harnesses.
Me? I'm waiting for the official fix from Yamaha.
csquared
Member
Check post #36 with #41 and #46 as follow-ons. Mine is an '09 A and that rascal failed during some of the nicest fall riding weather last year. The part number for the replacement harness was 3P6-82590-90-00 (from the work order). Additionally it was reported to NHTSA.
not2shabby
Well-known member
Does anyone have any idea how long that will take? I've got the YES coverage, but would rather not get stranded in BFE someday.
FRJ Jc
Well-known member
Only 3 complaints for the Prius brakes problem and the US Gov't is looking into it. :glare:
Last time I checked there where more then 3 complaints here. Fingers, arms, legs and toes crossed that it will not take a bad accident to get someone from the Gov't to look into this and force Yamaha's hand.
Last time I checked there where more then 3 complaints here. Fingers, arms, legs and toes crossed that it will not take a bad accident to get someone from the Gov't to look into this and force Yamaha's hand.
FJR919
Well-known member
After writing this response (bolded and enlarged), I started thinking Yamaha might have some other internal wires/splices buried in the harness (soldered joints hidden under the loom) that could be providing extra ground paths to the various spiders so I pulled out the DMM again just to check. (I'm surprised no one else picked up on this!)In the main harness, the mating half of the connector on the right has a solid black color wire in it (10ga?) which shows continuity to both the Rect/Reg, item 2 in schematic (also 10ga wire), and over to spider S4-Pin3 (16ga?). [SIZE=12pt]There must be a splice buried inside the harness somewhere where the ground bus (spider) circuit breaks off[/SIZE]. I've seen splices in other sections where the wires are exposed on my spare harness.Thanks for the heads-up....Gen II harness at the battery, you can see the two wire grounding connector on the negative battery lead. The Evil Black Widow Spider starts here.
...
So all the ground current passes through the connector to the right of your picture? I shall certainly be checking mine next time I'm in there for any signs of corrosion or heating, but as it's a more conventional plug and socket, I would think there's less chance of it causing a problem than the spiders.
RESULTS: I found no other spiders (besides Black Widow, S4 and that other Black/White S5) were connected internally in the harness back to the battery via a direct spliced wire, so the “daisy-chaining” wires shown in the wiring table are the only paths back to the battery.
DARN - The problem still remains as bad as we suspected!
They can be obtained from Eastern Beaver...
Headlight connectors
Fan connector
(I have no affiliation with EB but have been a satisfied customer in the past)
JUST A FOLLOWUP...I HAVE MY PLAN OF ACTION...
After researching, reading prior posts here, and giving this a bunch of thought, I feel I have a solution for setting my mind at ease about this problem. I hope others will benefit from all our work. Hopefully, Yamaha will intervene before I actually get through all 3 steps.
ROOT CAUSE: To me, it is obvious what the problem is here. The downstream ground spiders are simply getting overloaded. The wiring table shows which ones are worse off than the others (see Rev 04 in reply 287). Over time, a little corrosion pushes the overloaded terminals beyond their limits (in a degraded state) and things melt down.
A CAUTION: I don’t plan to do anything with spiders S2 or S5 (other than applying a little dielectric grease is prevent corrosion when accessible) since some wires in there are part of closed loop control circuits with isolated grounds. Since I don’t fully understand the logic inside those “black boxes” (the controllers), I don’t feel it’s necessary to mess with them and risk tampering with a feedback signal that could ultimately lead to safety issues someday. I also believe they are carrying much less current than the rest of the ground spiders so they are of no real threat of failure.
PLAN OF ACTION: Remember, this is my plan, based on the supplies I have at my disposal, my remaining YES warranty, and the current condition of my bike (low mileage). In general, applying dielectic grease to any connection on a bike is a good prevention against future corrosion.
Step 1: Build one “5-INTO-1” repair spider connector as shown below and install it when I lift the tank to replace spark plugs. I just happen to have a spare spider and cap from the damaged portion of the front cowling harness so I can prepare the spider with ground lead prior to tearing into the bike. It wouldn’t take long to make one once the bike is apart though. I will not know exactly where to ground it on the chassis until I open it up, so I will solder on a long length of wire so I can cut-to-fit and crimp the ring terminal during installation. I’m in need of a spark plug change in the very near future so this will be an opportune time to do this step. This extra ground wire helps reduce the current flowing through spider S4-Pin3, the actual battery ground, where I believe the true trouble lies. This will eliminate a majority of the meltdown risk.
Step 2: Build two Y-connectors for the radiator fan motors (see below). I think this is important if you sit in traffic a lot and your fans come on often. These could also be prepared ahead of time, and be available when I’m ready to pull the side panels. As agreed upon by several forum members, they effectively will take the fan motor current (10A) completely out of the original ground loop AND add 2 additional ground paths to S4. At this time, I could remove the grounding spider wire installed in Step 1 since it is now redundant.
Step 3: If Yamaha has still not intervened with a factory fix to my liking, I will buy the necessary parts to build a similar Y-harness for each headlight. Like the fans, it will remove the headlight current from the original ground circuit (another 10A) and provide two additional ground paths for the front cowling harness (one each for S7 and S8). Even though an extra connection is added to each headlight creating another possible failure point, I feel the risk of BOTH lights going out at the same time is relatively low, therefore not a concern to me.
With all this done, I doubt there will ever be another issue with the grounding system. Good luck in fixing your bike.
Now - it’s time for me to do some riding...
It dawned on me that my concern about adding an additional connector (failure point) in the headlight circuits as mentioned in Step 3 above is really a non-issue. The original ground path of the headlights “daisy-chain” through the ground bus system, thus going through numerous connections before finally making it back to the battery. For instance, the right headlight’s current has no less than 10 spade terminals that it needs to pass through in its path back to the battery, 8 of which are going in and out of spiders S8, S7, S6 and S4.
I guess adding that one extra connector on the power side of the headlights is worth eliminating 9 other possible failure points on the ground side!
JamesK
Got to ride
RZ, I'm thinking that even with all the ground spiders soldered up and independently grounded to the chassis it can't hurt to remove the big current consumers like the fans from the OEM wiring harness. Btw, following your and Ionbeam's findings I've since disconnected my new ground wires from S2 & S5, just to play it safe.
Could you please confirm if these are the EB connectors you think will be needed to make up the plug-in loom for separately grounding the fans, they look like the right ones, but...
I'm planning on installing the HID kit Todd is selling which will be using their own, direct power wiring, so that only leaves the fans...
Connectors with internal lock - by Sumitomo
Could you please confirm if these are the EB connectors you think will be needed to make up the plug-in loom for separately grounding the fans, they look like the right ones, but...
I'm planning on installing the HID kit Todd is selling which will be using their own, direct power wiring, so that only leaves the fans...
Connectors with internal lock - by Sumitomo
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Without having the connectors from EB in front of me to try, it is hard to say which is the proper one. The ones that best match it visually seem to be the black set, 2PF250, with the external lock barb (Yazaki). What is odd is that it states "Same connector as above, but in black" yet the white one shown doesn't appear to have a lock barb. The Yamaha harness connector does have an external lock barb and is black.RZ, I'm thinking that even with all the ground spiders soldered up and independently grounded to the chassis it can't hurt to remove the big current consumers like the fans from the OEM wiring harness. Btw, following your and Ionbeam's findings I've since disconnected my new ground wires from S2 & S5, just to play it safe.
Could you please confirm if these are the EB connectors you think will be needed to make up the plug-in loom for separately grounding the fans, they look like the right ones, but...
I'm planning on installing the HID kit Todd is selling which will be using their own, direct power wiring, so that only leaves the fans...
Connectors with internal lock - by Sumitomo
To be honest, I was being intentionally vague with my connector links because I'm not certain at this point which are correct, but was simply pointing people in the right general direction.
JamesK
Got to ride
OK, I took one for the team and ordered 2 sets of each type, will post up once I receive and try them out.
You're OK JamesK - The "team" thanks you. :clapping:
The extra connectors will still be useful to you or someone else - I think either female half will fit the backside of a Powerlet socket.
Please note the the wiring harness I analyzed was an '08 A so I doubt they are exempt from the problem. Also note that it carried a "-60" in the part number (instead of -90 stated above for the '09A model). See notes following the table in post 287 for all details.
road runner
Well-known member
Although a little late I'm recommending any further posts about fixing, preventing, observations, AKA "bench racing" of spiders goes to This thread.
Still use this "poll" thread for those that have been affected and reporting it. But post the "bench racing" on the other thread.
Thanks; A.C.
Still use this "poll" thread for those that have been affected and reporting it. But post the "bench racing" on the other thread.
Thanks; A.C.
HaulinAshe
Well-known member
Encountered my first ground spider problem today. Not my bike, someone else's '06A.
Front-left ground spider, just above the turn signal area. No induced failures yet. Found during routine maintenance and inspection (removed left fairing to flush/clean coolant reserve bottle).
One of two larger gauge wires obviously hot,burned,damaged. Spider itself slightly corroded. 5 of 6 connections perfectly okay.
Problem is IMO, lack of tension on female pins of larger gauge wires. Crimping must be distorting the pins just enough to lose tension on the pin itself, resulting in high-resistance connection as time and some corrosion set in. Pins/wire sizes are probably within manufacturer's limits, but there is an obvious difference in pin tension between smaller gauge wires and larger gauges.
Even the undamaged larger gauge wires have less female pin tension. Very difficult to detect with the spider engaging all six(6) at once. You have to use a single male pin to test the fit.
Front-left ground spider, just above the turn signal area. No induced failures yet. Found during routine maintenance and inspection (removed left fairing to flush/clean coolant reserve bottle).
One of two larger gauge wires obviously hot,burned,damaged. Spider itself slightly corroded. 5 of 6 connections perfectly okay.
Problem is IMO, lack of tension on female pins of larger gauge wires. Crimping must be distorting the pins just enough to lose tension on the pin itself, resulting in high-resistance connection as time and some corrosion set in. Pins/wire sizes are probably within manufacturer's limits, but there is an obvious difference in pin tension between smaller gauge wires and larger gauges.
Even the undamaged larger gauge wires have less female pin tension. Very difficult to detect with the spider engaging all six(6) at once. You have to use a single male pin to test the fit.
Grit
Member
My 08 died Friday night while doing a turn around on an incline. I thought I stalled it at first.
All the symptoms fit a spider problem, but the dealer was bored with my story and said Yamaha never heard of anything like that. But he did say that, Yamaha suggested looking under the tank at the grounding blocks. My fried spider was the one up front near the glove box.
The dealer is at a loss for what “caused the problem”. And realizes he is only replacing the damage from the problem. My bike only has 9,800 miles. :angry:
All the symptoms fit a spider problem, but the dealer was bored with my story and said Yamaha never heard of anything like that. But he did say that, Yamaha suggested looking under the tank at the grounding blocks. My fried spider was the one up front near the glove box.
The dealer is at a loss for what “caused the problem”. And realizes he is only replacing the damage from the problem. My bike only has 9,800 miles. :angry:
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S76
Well-known member
They never heard of the problem but knew right where to look!
Nice. Taking lessons from Toyota?
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