KrZy8 Gen2 - Charging Circuit

[Donal]

Excellent point Fred, 'crisply' made (pun intended!)

On that same note, I *finally* located the power wires for the ABS brakes. They are buried toward the inner side, center, of the bike's width, above the RR plate. The connector looks like a beotch to get at - it's connected to the bracket housing the pump, requiring disassembly at arms reach while laying on the floor. I so want a lift. This connector is the last of the power circuit I've not had apart. I doubt it's leaking any current, but it would be 'curious' to disconnect it and see what happens to the VDC drop from batt + to RR output +. Thoughts? Worthwhile to chase it down since I'm this deep into it or just not worth the ROI?

One other connector I've not been into for inspection is the ECU - same question, leave alone or should it too be looked at, just for grins and giggles?

Not really sure what you mean by "it's leaking any current". The ABS system could draw additional current (if the pump is running) and thus cause additional volts drop, but it won't cause any current to go astray. IMHO

If you want to discover if it is drawing any additional current go with Ionbeam's advice.

Just my two pence worth

Don

Excellent point Fred, 'crisply' made (pun intended!)

On that same note, I *finally* located the power wires for the ABS brakes. They are buried toward the inner side, center, of the bike's width, above the RR plate. The connector looks like a beotch to get at - it's connected to the bracket housing the pump, requiring disassembly at arms reach while laying on the floor. I so want a lift. This connector is the last of the power circuit I've not had apart. I doubt it's leaking any current, but it would be 'curious' to disconnect it and see what happens to the VDC drop from batt + to RR output +. Thoughts? Worthwhile to chase it down since I'm this deep into it or just not worth the ROI?

One other connector I've not been into for inspection is the ECU - same question, leave alone or should it too be looked at, just for grins and giggles?

Not really sure what you mean by "it's leaking any current". The ABS system could draw additional current (if the pump is running) and thus cause additional volts drop, but it won't cause any current to go astray. IMHO

If you want to discover if it is drawing any additional current go with Ionbeam's advice.

Just my two pence worth

Don

 

[ionbeam]

...Not really sure what you mean by "it's leaking any current"...

If the connector isn't tightly plugged in or if there are tiny holes in the wire insulation current leaks out, runs down the center stand and flows to ground, forming a puddle under the bike. Oh wait, it's not Friday yet.

If the wire insulation is worn or broken, if wire strands come loose and contacts the frame there will be unlimited current flow through the short circuit until the fuse steps up and sacrifices itself. If there is a problem with the motor or dirt and water in a connector you have a resistive connection that lets small amounts of current trickle to ground, but not enough to provoke the fuse into self immolation.

We have to remember that Don is sensitive to things like leaking current because he has found this before when Wabs had a bad fuel pump motor. (Which may explain his preliminary diagnosis of a bad fuel pump in his FJR.)

 

[dcarver]

...Not really sure what you mean by "it's leaking any current"...

If the connector isn't tightly plugged in or if there are tiny holes in the wire insulation current leaks out, runs down the center stand and flows to ground, forming a puddle under the bike. Oh wait, it's not Friday yet. :yahoo:

If the wire insulation is worn or broken, if wire strands come loose and contacts the frame there will be unlimited current flow through the short circuit until the fuse steps up and sacrifices itself. If there is a problem with the motor or dirt and water in a connector you have a resistive connection that lets small amounts of current trickle to ground, but not enough to provoke the fuse into self immolation.

We have to remember that Don is sensitive to things like leaking current because he has found this before when Wabs had a bad fuel pump motor. (Which may explain his preliminary diagnosis of a bad fuel pump in his FJR.)

Poor choice of words, eh?

Oh, when current leaks out, it doesn't form puddles, Fred, it vaporizes into thin air, not thick air, but thin air, and sometimes has a rather pungent smell.

My thinking behind 'leaky' is I've experienced relay controlled, relatively large, DC motors source amps to ground not sufficient to turn the armature yet adequate to load the system, e.g. this motor has a 30 amp fuse, indicating maximum acceptable current draw. If the relay is 'partially' on due to failing contacts etc, it's possible to have some current, let's just say 3 - 5 amps being drawn that aren't sufficient to activate the motor yet more than enough to cause a small voltage drop in the circuit - and at this point I'm chasing down about .2 to .3 vdc drop, the difference between the oem harness and the external harness. :blink:

Oh, yeah and did I mention that Wabs had an electrically 'leaky' fuel pump? :lol:

To the man who owns a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail?

 

[dcarver]

Pull the fuse.

LOL, you got me to spew coffee..

Yeah, I did that already, thanks for reminding me!

How about I rephrase the questions..

If a feller planned to keep his 150k mile motobike on the road for an extended period of time, and had already freshened up the chassis, swapped the engine with low mileage unit, would it be beneficial to access the ECU and ABS connectors for inspection, cleaning, and lubing?

 

[ionbeam]

Oh, when current leaks out, it doesn't form puddles, Fred Alan, it vaporizes into thin air, not thick air, but thin air, and sometimes has a rather pungent smell.

If a feller planned to keep his 150k mile motobike on the road for an extended period of time, and had already freshened up the chassis, swapped the engine with low mileage unit, would it be beneficial to access the ECU and ABS connectors for inspection, cleaning, and lubing?

Ask yourself -- is it broken?

So, it wasn't broken but you messed with it anyway.

A week later, in the dark of night, in the rain, in the middle of nowhere you notice a glitch in the way the bike is running causing the engine to misfire. Your mind starts to run over the things you have recently messed with to see if the problem may be related to recent work. Do you really want to add yet another thing to worry about? Don't poke a sleeping bear.

 

[Donal]

If you are really worried about current 'leaking' through some unidentified path then a few checks with an ammeter should help to clear that up. e.g. measure the current 'leaving' the RR and then 'arriving' at the battery. If there is any significant difference then it's time to start worrying.

Don

 

[dcarver]

Replaced the OEM connector between starter relay and main fuse and lost .1 Vdc drop, a good improvement.

If there is one thing learned, me thinks, is that not always is *one* issue the problem, rather multiple components aggregating.

I think I've checked, cleaned, conditioned pretty much every connector on KrZy8Eh now -

Replaced the OEM connector going to main fuse..

Here is typical stuff I've seen at various connectors... this one Brodies ignition relay..

And YES, I did get into the ABS power connector... just could not resist.

Long of Short?

Video to follow...

Work done 7/20/2012

And video..

https://vimeo.com/46132881

 

[bramfrank]

I've been keeping a close eye on this thread because my ride is also not delivering as many volts to the battery as I'd like to see. Then again, after all that I've been through with Yamaha, they have yet to come up with a new wiring harness for me (always on back order). Mine will almost certainly be the very last FJR to have the harness replaced (In the meantime I have bypassed a couple of the grounds with 18 gauge wires soldered to the metal spiders and terminated at my fuse block grounds which has a 16 gauge wire back to the battery).

Checking the manual there really isn't much involved in the charging system on the bike - no relays, no switches, just the stator, regulator, main fuse and battery - everything else is fluff, unless there are huge undocumented loads that exceed the machine's capacity.

The stator/rectifier-regulator/Main Fuse/Battery is a direct circuit - power does NOT take a path through the ECU. ABS or any of that other stuff and the likelihood of literally tens of amps of sneak current, even on a very filthy bike is pretty low. I haven't looked, - does the negative circuit use the chassis at any point or is it delivered directly to the battery (I would hope the latter)? If it uses the chassis, then that ought to be bypassed out - it would be poor electrical practise to do that.

Troubleshooting OUGHT to be as simple as following the steps in the manual - checking that the stator can generate adequate AC voltage across the coils (and it should be equal between each leg) and the unloaded DC output of the regulator - from what I've seen it appears that the machine has passed these tests with flying colours - the manual does say 14 volts at the RR output at 5K RPM and that seems to have been exceeded as well.

So it seems that the entire wire harness (well beyond the affected components) has been cleaned up, connectors tightened up and that voltage drop is minimized, though I personally would solder all of those crimped-but-not-soldered connectors in the stator/RR/fuse/battery path - nothing else is implicated in the charging circuit according to the manual. Again, if the yokels have not run a dedicated wire between the regulator negative output and the negative battery terminal I would put one in myself.

It is all very nice that we'd like to officially see 14.2 volts across the battery terminals while the engine is running because that is what the battery people say we should see, but if the manufacturer says that the regulator puts out 14.0 volts THAT isn't going to happen.

So if I read my service manual correctly your bike is within the manufacturer's spec.

The regulator is an industry standard device that has no adjustments to mess up, so you'd think that as long as the stator is delivering at least enough voltage to keep the regulator output fixed at it's maximum it should be enough.

Has the machine let you down and refused to start? Are you just chasing a problem that doesn't actually exist (or, perhaps is it simply that the manufacturer's design is inadequate)?

In any case, the weather is lovely. Make sure your roadside assistance is paid up, then get out and ride the beast. I'll be out riding in Vermont today.

 

[dcarver]

I haven't looked, - does the negative circuit use the chassis at any point or is it delivered directly to the battery (I would hope the latter)?

It returns to the battery.

Troubleshooting OUGHT to be as simple as following the steps in the manual - checking that the stator can generate adequate AC voltage across the coils (and it should be equal between each leg) and the unloaded DC output of the regulator - from what I've seen it appears that the machine has passed these tests with flying colours - the manual does say 14 volts at the RR output at 5K RPM and that seems to have been exceeded as well.

The FSM doesn't call out an unloaded RR test. IIRC,it says to not do so.. but would have look again to be positive. Mine was over 15 vdc unloaded, dropping to 13.2 at idle, 13.5 at 5k, with just 'house load' e.g. no farkles. Running the HID's dropped it to 11.8 idle, 12.3 5k rpm.. too low.

So it seems that the entire wire harness (well beyond the affected components) has been cleaned up, connectors tightened up and that voltage drop is minimized, though I personally would solder all of those crimped-but-not-soldered connectors in the stator/RR/fuse/battery path...

I've heard soldering tends to stress failure later - and since the external harness seems to make all good again, I'll probably leave as is, especially given I ride 6 miles of shaker table dirt road daily.

It is all very nice that we'd like to officially see 14.2 volts across the battery terminals while the engine is running because that is what the battery people say we should see, but if the manufacturer says that the regulator puts out 14.0 volts THAT isn't going to happen.

Unless an external harness is in place..

Has the machine let you down and refused to start? Are you just chasing a problem that doesn't actually exist (or, perhaps is it simply that the manufacturer's design is inadequate)?

Ding Ding, Yes and Yes! Machine hasn't let me down and failed to start - but I've not run any extra loads knowing if I did it would. Chasing an non-existent problem? To me it's a real issue, not being able to run any extra load,especially since I like being warm in the winter and seeing at night, :rofl: Is the OEM design marginal? YES, IMHO. My Suzuki DL650 outputs 14.7 measured across battery with Fluke DVM all day and night long.

 

[FJRay]

I haven't looked, - does the negative circuit use the chassis at any point or is it delivered directly to the battery (I would hope the latter)?

It returns to the battery.

Troubleshooting OUGHT to be as simple as following the steps in the manual - checking that the stator can generate adequate AC voltage across the coils (and it should be equal between each leg) and the unloaded DC output of the regulator - from what I've seen it appears that the machine has passed these tests with flying colours - the manual does say 14 volts at the RR output at 5K RPM and that seems to have been exceeded as well.

The FSM doesn't call out an unloaded RR test. IIRC,it says to not do so.. but would have look again to be positive. Mine was over 15 vdc unloaded, dropping to 13.2 at idle, 13.5 at 5k, with just 'house load' e.g. no farkles. Running the HID's dropped it to 11.8 idle, 12.3 5k rpm.. too low.

So it seems that the entire wire harness (well beyond the affected components) has been cleaned up, connectors tightened up and that voltage drop is minimized, though I personally would solder all of those crimped-but-not-soldered connectors in the stator/RR/fuse/battery path...

I've heard soldering tends to stress failure later - and since the external harness seems to make all good again, I'll probably leave as is, especially given I ride 6 miles of shaker table dirt road daily.

It is all very nice that we'd like to officially see 14.2 volts across the battery terminals while the engine is running because that is what the battery people say we should see, but if the manufacturer says that the regulator puts out 14.0 volts THAT isn't going to happen.

Unless an external harness is in place..

Has the machine let you down and refused to start? Are you just chasing a problem that doesn't actually exist (or, perhaps is it simply that the manufacturer's design is inadequate)?

Ding Ding, Yes and Yes! Machine hasn't let me down and failed to start - but I've not run any extra loads knowing if I did it would. Chasing an non-existent problem? To me it's a real issue, not being able to run any extra load,especially since I like being warm in the winter and seeing at night, :rofl: Is the OEM design marginal? YES, IMHO. My Suzuki DL650 outputs 14.7 measured across battery with Fluke DVM all day and night long.

When people lust for a new version with 6 speeds, cruise,canceling signals and other bells and wistles I would trade it all for a Wingabago tpye charging system. I am waiting for my Electrojunk to fail so I can get a third one. :angry2:

 

[kaitsdad]

Well, this thread is bookmarked. Amazing amount of information here - Thanks to everyone that contributed. Senor Carver, El Jefe de El Honderosa, the collective owes you a huge one for this. Lots of folks would have just done the work, but you went above and beyond documenting.

Thanks for sharing. Next time you're down this way, a home made Key Lime pie will be yours. Just let me know a day in advance, ok?

 

[bramfrank]

I've heard soldering tends to stress failure later - and since the external harness seems to make all good again, I'll probably leave as is, especially given I ride 6 miles of shaker table dirt road daily.

It is all very nice that we'd like to officially see 14.2 volts across the battery terminals while the engine is running because that is what the battery people say we should see, but if the manufacturer says that the regulator puts out 14.0 volts THAT isn't going to happen.

Unless an external harness is in place..

Has the machine let you down and refused to start? Are you just chasing a problem that doesn't actually exist (or, perhaps is it simply that the manufacturer's design is inadequate)?

Ding Ding, Yes and Yes! Machine hasn't let me down and failed to start - but I've not run any extra loads knowing if I did it would. Chasing an non-existent problem? To me it's a real issue, not being able to run any extra load,especially since I like being warm in the winter and seeing at night, :rofl: Is the OEM design marginal? YES, IMHO. My Suzuki DL650 outputs 14.7 measured across battery with Fluke DVM all day and night long.

1. Solder is brittle. It cracks. But it is highly conductive and won't crack if you are simply filling the voids in the crimp.

2. External harness or not, Yamaha says 14.0 at the output of the RR, not at the battery. If indeed the harness solves the problem for you then the question to ask is why? Did Yamaha undersize those wires as well?.

3. Your 'dng ding' should be 'no' and 'no if I read this correctly. But there are supposedly about a hundred and niney watts available when the engine is spinning at the 'voltage peak' which seems to be about 5K RPM - You pull any significant amount of them and it WILL be insufficient at idle. Notwithstanding, Yamaha has not provided the same platform that (for example) Honda did on the Goldwing, where they expect you to start adding stuff - it has been one of the ongoing laments about the bike that it has limited capacity in that regard.

4. Your Suzuki isn't a Yamaha. Maybe they use a different regulator that you could transplant to your machine?

Seems to me that a large gauge ultraflex cable (like one in the pic in post 131) that has the RR output connector on one end, a low loss fuse connector and and a set of ring terminals on the other might make the next of the saleable wiring mods for the market.

 

[dcarver]

Summary - 2012-07-22

Here's the numbers for my homemade external harness read across battery terminals using Fluke DVM. I have the 'real' harness being built now, will test when it comes in, for now though..

Unloaded, e.g. no extra farkles (hid lights, fans, heated gear,etc)

And loaded (hid, hi beams, fans on in Case 1, fans off in Case 2, brake lights all on)

Case 1 - I'm seeing a .85 volt difference at 5k rpm from house load to fully loaded, 14.15 - 13.3 vdc.

Case 2 - Seeing a 1.01 volt difference at idle (13.94 - 12.93) (Note I took the average of the two idle measurements for this calc, 13.92, 13.96)

All to say a significant improvement over the starting point -

No Load

Idle VDC = 13.2

5000 rpm = 13.5 vdc

HID Lights On

Idle VDC = 11.8

5000 rpm = 12.3

In summary,

1. Replacing the RR output connector raised output at batt from 13.5 to 13.8, 13.9, 5k rpm, although it takes a while to achieve that voltage.
   
2. Substituting the OEM charging wiring with an external harness provided the greatest results - 14.1, 14.2 vdc at idle and the volts are there instantly, doesn't take 3 - 4 minutes.
   

Given Ionbeam's info, I'm in good shape now. Now to get the subframe back from the weld shop...

With a good charging system, and a healthy, properly charged battery I would offer these guidelines for sustained voltages:
≤12.8 volts at the battery terminals – the charging system is over taxed, the battery is being discharged, and the stator is in danger of being permanently damaged.

12.8 to 13.2 volts – entering the danger zone, the battery is no longer being trickle charged and the stator is being taxed to the limits.

13.2 – 13.7 volts – sustainable, the stator is taxed but the battery is being charged.

13.7 to 14.5 volts – schweet

 

[dcarver]

2. External harness or not, Yamaha says 14.0 at the output of the RR, not at the battery. If indeed the harness solves the problem for you then the question to ask is why? Did Yamaha undersize those wires as well?.

Very possible.. Take a look at the pix of the crimp at the Main Fuse.. very small surface area, contact point..

3. ...there are supposedly about a hundred and niney watts available when the engine is spinning at the 'voltage peak' which seems to be about 5K RPM - You pull any significant amount of them and it WILL be insufficient at idle.

My max output is just up from idle, long short of 5k rpm. Read a very good paper done by an EE who documented this as normal behavior.

"One other thing worth mentioning about the OEM R/R is that those of you who have voltmeters, orhave used voltmeters to check the charging system output may have noticed that as engine RPM

increases, the voltage output of the charging system decreases slightly. THIS IS NORMAL. This is

most likely due to the increased reactance in the stator coils, due to the increased AC frequency, due to

the increased engine RPM. (that's a mouthful) It isn't a defect in any way."

My max output is in the 2k to 2.5k rpm band. Check out the post above, at idle the drops are minimal, even with large load.

Seems to me that a large gauge ultraflex cable (like one in the pic in post 131) that has the RR output connector on one end, a low loss fuse connector and and a set of ring terminals on the other might make the next of the saleable wiring mods for the market.

I'm having Jim at Eastern Beaver build a custom designed harness specifically for the FJR. Will post up pix and results when it arrives and is installed.

 

[dcarver]

FRACK

Installed the Eastern Beaver (EB) harness, incredibly well built, and ran initial numbers. Not too impressive. 13.5 to 13.8, on a stretch run.

On a whim, installed the dcarver harness and the results were immediately back to 14.1, 14.2, full load (hids, hi beam, brakes)

The EB harness at the 30 amp fuse point?

Very hot.

DC clamp on ammeter showing 28+ amps.

Too hot to hold with fingers..

Installed 'dcarver' non-fused 10 gauge from RR output to battery and 14.1, 14.2 show, the RR is running cooler..

Makes a feller wonder if the original wire gage spec'd by Yamaha is too small or if I have problems elsewhere?

I am growing really tired of this project - so will find some huge current cable as pixed above, run it to an automtive circuit breaker (50 amps), and see what happens.

Arrgh.

 

[kaitsdad]

Senor El Jefe de Honderosa -

Please peruse this link: Wire Gauge Ampacity

Take note of the AWG numbers and the max amps - Interesting.

What gauge is the EB harness?

 

[JamesK]

Senor El Jefe de Honderosa -

Please peruse this link: Wire Gauge Ampacity

Take note of the AWG numbers and the max amps - Interesting.

What gauge is the EB harness?

Kaitsdad,

Very interesting link in deed

AWG...Dia Inch....Cir Mil....Ohms/km.....CU Max (free-air) Amps......CU Max (enclosed) Amps

12.......0.081.......6,529.9.......5.210....................41................................23

10.......0.102.......10,383.0.....3.985....................55................................33

The EB harness is 12AWG, Jim said that for whatever reason he does not carry 10AWG wiring or associated connectors.

Based on what I see listed in the figures you linked, for an enclosed 10AWG is Max current is 33Amps. Thus the 30A circuit breaker that Jack sells is more than sufficient IMHO. Also DC measured 28A and since this circuit breaker will auto resume if tripped by somehow exceeding the 30A limit I really don't see an issue.

DC thanks again for the great and detailed work you put into this project, I knew I had to do something as my readings were very similar to yours and I knew they would only get worse.

I just received the order from Jack at www.Roadstercycle.com, who is also very knowledgeable and a great guy to deal with. I ordered 20ft of 10AWG (some for spares) the 30A Circuit Breaker and the associated connectors for the R/R, Battery Terminals and the Circuit Breaker.

I did the wiring bypass last night, and have spent the entire day at work being distracted by the idea of finally seeing something in the very high 13s or 14.x Volts on the Datel. Like kaitsdad said, I haven't seen 14.1 since 2008 :blink:



I had some flexible sheath which I wrapped around the 10AWG wire pair along the whole path where it snakes it's way through the engine compartment, across the bike (under the gas tank rear support rail and down the LHS of the bike, like the OEM R/R and Stator looms. I both crimped and soldered all the connections. Really psyched about seeing the results tonight.

Here are a few pics of the Circuit Breaker, etc.

 

[dcarver]

I'm confused. The RR is rated for 50 amps, as is the main fuse. Why are installing 30 amp fuses in a 50 amp circuit that is regularly pushing > 30 amps?

Hal, will look at your link when at work, I think better when at work.. :glare:

JamesK, take some readings! Come on now, you're killing me with suspense! :huh: :lol:

 

[JamesK]

I'm confused. The RR is rated for 50 amps, as is the main fuse. Why are installing 30 amp fuses in a 50 amp circuit that is regularly pushing > 30 amps?

Hal, will look at your link when at work, I think better when at work.. :glare:

JamesK, take some readings! Come on now, you're killing me with suspense! :huh: :lol:

Total Success!!!!!

The simple R/R bypass works like magic, I'm finally seeing the kind of behavior I saw from the FJR when she was just a young pup, I'd even go so far as to say better than new :yahoo:

This is immediately after start up, I didn't capture the steady build u, but it basically seemed to steadily, but quickly progress around 1 volt at time...



The Voltage builds up to 14.1 within around 1 minute or so of starting (using a normally charged battery that's in good operating condition) on just idle (1,100 rpm, this is with a warmed up engine). It would likely be even quicker on a fast idle of the auto choke.



We all know that the Escort is around 0.4-0.5V optimistic...

Now the response when I power up the Soltek HIDs, with the fans already running and the 35W HID headlights (just on low since there is insignificant difference b/w Hi/Lo beam with the HID Bi-Xeon headlights).

As the Solteks first kick in the Volts drop to around 13.5-13.6



Within a few seconds the Volts start to build back up



The bike still manages to keep the Volts at b/w 13.9-14.1 at anywhere above around 3,000 rpm. The 10AWG wire feels slightly warm, but certainly NOT hot, where as the OEM smaller gauge wire often was seriously hot.

I'm as happy as a pig in shit, and am kicking myself for not having done this years ago.

For the past couple of years, at least, I have been progressively feeling like an unfortunate Gen 1 owner (actually I've been envious of Gen 1s since they at least get to use the power they were born with) having to constantly pay real close attention to my power usage with the lights at night and the heated gear in the Winter, but NO MORE! :yahoo:

Don, you da man :good: , really appreciate all the hard work you did in the laborious testing so that people like me could go out and get 'er done. :drinks:

So just to add to my earlier post describing the setup, I originally ordered 20ft of the 10AWG wire, having measured the left over tonight it appears that based on how I decided to run my R/R bypass I used around 6ft of wire. I guess you could find a better/shorter route but I think the path I used works well.

I decided to just tape up the OEM connector and stick in the little space at the end of the LHS cavity, under and just behind the ECU.

 

[JamesK]

This is how bad it was, I actually didn't know (never saw) that my Datel could display above 14 Volts or higher :blink: I know it's supposed to be able to but until now I never got to see it, not freaking once since I installed the Datel about a year after onwing hte FJR so it must have already degraded enough by then... :angry2: