Retrofit ABS to Gen I FJR

[Rain Dancer]

So, are you saying that we should ignore all statistical studies then? Just go with first hand experiences, gut feelings and conjecture?

Not at all, I am just saying that they need to be looked at closely to see what their control was, and what they actually surveyed.

Probably not. "Learning to ride well" would mean that you NEVER reach the point where the ABS would even activate. You would never put yourself into that position. My take is not that they are building ABS to protect the inept rider, but rather they are protecting any rider, even the most skilled, when put into an extreme situation.

The "ABS vs Skill" argument is not a particularly new one, nor limited to 2 wheel vehicles. It is easy to show that a non-ABS braking system can slightly outperform ABS in optimum conditions, when tire adhesion is uniform and predictable. The advantage of having a computer (which can think faster and more accurately than a human) electronically monitoring wheel slip and intervening when you've gone too far is mostly in circumstances that your brain, and your eyes are not capable of interpreting adequately.

Yes, by all means everyone should ride or drive like they don't have ABS. Only a complete fool would do otherwise. That is, right up until the point where you have gone too far and the ABS does activate, and then you have to be confident, practiced, and aware enough of the ABS functionality to use it correctly.

Here is where I was referencing the study. I feel learning to ride also encompasses learning to deal with the unexpected, such as a locked wheel when braking. The study didn't mention (that I saw) anything about the skill level of the riders. Go to the bar up the street from me any weekend in the summer, and you can hear stories of close calls and wrecks....almost all because a lot of those people can't not ride. So, if I use that group as my control for the study, have I proved ABS is wonderful, or that riders need better skills? My point is not that ABS is bad, but used as a crutch by some riders. A lot of modern ABS systems will pout stop me, I am sure. Yet every time I take an advanced course for refreshing my skills, I find I can stop in the top, and that when I speak to riders with ABS, a lot of them feel that the stopping practice we do are a waste because they have ABS and don't need it.

I don't know anyone who "depends" on their ABS once a week, and I can't imagine where you got the information that ABS systems (or the new blind spot warning systems) have "caused" accidents when they were new technology. Was it from a statistical study, perhaps?

Some riders may intentionally activate their ABS weekly, or maybe even more often, but that doesn't mean that they are "depending" on it. There is a significant difference in that.

Smart aleck!

Yes, it was a study by the American Insurance Institute (OK....same place you linked to...)about the ABS brakes. When ABS first was offered, insurance companies were giving discounts. Then they found more cars with ABS in accidents percentage wise. The finding was people that had it drove like it would save them. Much like people around here in the winter with their SUV’s. “Caused” was the wrong word…..people still cause the accidents, but it’s because they depend on technology to cover for them.

Just on this thread, and I am not calling anyone out, and maybe it was tongue in cheek…but “rarely a ride day goes by I don’t use ABS”, or “it gets used once a week”…for me, and this is only my opinion, that is too much. Did these riders fall a lot before ABS brakes?

Understood, and I agree. Debate is a valuable utility when it can be maintained without undue emotion. There is seldom a question that is so black and white that is beyond rational discussion and debate. Debate gets things out in the open so everyone can consider and make their own decisions. What could be wrong with that?
FWIW, in the last bit there you said that you "used the study" I posted a link to, but I don't see where you used it at all in your argument. You merely tried to discredit the study because it is statistical, which is fine. There have been many other studies that have been done experimentally, rather than statistically, and they all show that in adverse conditions the ABS results in shorter and more consistent stopping distances.

If I boil down your argument (and paraphrase) I think that your position is that a well trained and highly skilled rider (such as yourself) will always be able to outperform an ABS equipped one.

My position is: ...not always.

I wanted to mention that to you only because sometimes in writing, people can feel attacked since they can’t read the person. If I am ever able to ride again, I hope I can meet you sometime. I enjoy your views and how articulate you are at presenting them. And I practice my skills, and take pride in them, but I am FAR from a Rossi! (Much to my dismay)

And this was way off what Gitbox had started. Love following people doing major upgrades like he was contemplating. Guess a new FJR is in his future now?

BTW: I don't dislike ABS, or technology, just miss people using skill and common sense because of it.

 

[Fred W]

We are in agreement more than not here.

What's that saying about "common sense not being so common?" I think that kind of logic applies to driving, and yes motorcycle riding, too; the vast majority of all drivers and riders believe they are well above average.

Thanks for the healthy dialog.

 

[HYCLE]

When I teach ABS systems one of our test questions asks,

Mechanic A says ABS vechcles will stop the in a shorter distance.

Mechanic B says ABS vechcles can maintain directional stability in a panic stop.

Only Mechanic B is correct.

I Tell my students it allows you to pick what you are going to hit. LOL

 

[ionbeam]

When I teach ABS systems one of our test questions asks, Mechanic A says ABS vechcles will stop the in a shorter distance.

Mechanic B says ABS vechcles can maintain directional stability in a panic stop.

Only Mechanic B is correct.

I Tell my students it allows you to pick what you are going to hit. LOL

Which test question is true?

Mechanic A says that a professional rider on a well maintained motorcycle with good tires, on good pavement, on dry pavement, in a controlled brake test situation can stop in a shorter distance than ABS.

Mechanic B says that 90% of riders on the street, on unknown pavement, on possibly damp pavement, caught totally by surprise (because a rider, even a professional can be involved in another driver’s totally unpredictable FU), requiring immediate reaction, can stop in a shorter distance with better control than ABS.

Independent tests sometime in the 2006 time period showed that a Honda ST stopped 7-8 feet longer with ABS than without. The FJR stopped 11-13 feet longer with ABS than without. Since then Yamaha has changed the brake system which probably will change the ABS vs Without stopping distances. If there is anything that effects traction the distances will both be longer. I have posted the test report previously, if I have some time I’ll see if I can find it.

 

[Fred W]

A measured dry road test of the modern ABS of the 3rd Gen would be interesting. I suspect the modern systems are much closer to the non-ABS standard than with ABS of the past.

I have had the "opportunity" to test mine (during my 1st month of owning my 3rd Gen) in a real word panic stop situation on a perfect clean and dry road, and I was very impressed and somewhat surprised with how quickly it hauls the hefty girl down from speed. I do not think I could have done any better without ABS, even with the optimum conditions of that day, and I am a relatively experienced rider and employed proper braking technique.

 

[Donal]

No amount of training will be of any use in a true panic (Amygdala Attack) situation. What tends to happen in a true panic stop is the front & rear brakes are applied instantly, with no thought for 75% front/25% rear or whatever.

One of the consequences of this is the front suspension is rapidly 'overloaded' even to the point of bottoming out.

Then the fun begins; after the initial plunge, the springs overcome the initial front loading and the springs then rebound.

This will lead to lowering the friction forces and can even cause the front wheel to momentarily lose contact with the ground.

Without ABS the front wheel can lock up and start sliding, very difficult to recover from........

The rapid transfer of load to the front wheel will cause a similar situation with the rear wheel (reduced load = reduced friction = locking up = sliding out).

 

[RaYzerman19]

Donal, your rear wheel scenario can occur. I can verify through a couple of real world experiences that going over a small hill and panic braking on the downslope can result in very little rear wheel contact, ABS useless at that point, and it may not re-engage until you are well into it, and may in fact result in rear wheel lockup. Front brakes had to do all the work with front suspension very compressed and weight all thrown forward.

 

[Fred W]

In full on braking the front wheel always does nearly all of the work because the weight has shifted to the front wheel and there is very little traction remaining on the rear.

I disagree with Donal somewhat in that you can train yourself not to stab at the brakes in a panic situation. You do this, like most training, by being aware of what you want to accomplish, and then by practicing.

Proper braking technique is to brake quickly but progressively at first to transfer weight to the front tire before you go to maximum brake force. This will increase the front tire's traction and allow more total braking force before the tire starts to slip. Stabbing at the brake will allow the tire to begin slipping before being fully loaded and thus never achieve full brake force.

This is true with or without ABS.

 

[ionbeam]

This is part of the report that I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread. Apparently time moves on and some of the links no longer go directly to the target.

The following is another data point. This is from a document off of the Motorcycle Safety Foundation's web site. To read the entire report >>CLICK HERE<<

The opening text:

In 2003, the U.S. Department of
Transportation, National Highway Traffic
Safety Administration (NHTSA) in cooperation
with Transport Canada (TC) conducted a
motorcycle brake research project. The
objective of this testing program was to assess
the effectiveness of anti-lock braking systems
(ABS) and combined brake systems (CBS) on
motorcycles using various braking maneuvers
and loading conditions.

Testing was performed with six motorcycles,
representing the dual-purpose, sport, and sport
touring segments for motorcycles. The
following motorcycles were used in the tests:
1. 2002 Honda VFR 800 with ABS & CBS
2. 2002 BMW F650 with ABS
3. 2002 BMW R 1150R with ABS & CBS
4. 2002 BMW R 1150R without ABS or CBS
5. 2004 Yamaha FJR1300 with ABS
6. 2004 Yamaha FJR1300 without ABS

The closing data table:

NOTE: 2004 FJRs were available at the end of 2003.

 

[Donal]

In full on braking the front wheel always does nearly all of the work because the weight has shifted to the front wheel and there is very little traction remaining on the rear.
I disagree with Donal somewhat in that you can train yourself not to stab at the brakes in a panic situation. You do this, like most training, by being aware of what you want to accomplish, and then by practicing.

Proper braking technique is to brake quickly but progressively at first to transfer weight to the front tire before you go to maximum brake force. This will increase the front tire's traction and allow more total braking force before the tire starts to slip. Stabbing at the brake will allow the tire to begin slipping before being fully loaded and thus never achieve full brake force.

This is true with or without ABS.

You might want to read the article on 'Amygdala attack' IF the Amygdala 'decides' there is a panic situation all conscious control is short circuited.

Normal conscious reaction time is about 500 milli seconds, an Amygdala response occurs in about 12 milli seconds. Your conscious brain will not even know you have done it.

This is partly why people who have had a panic situation can not remember exactly how it started, the conscious brain was simply not aware...............

 

[Old Michael]

Heck, if ABS really worked and if traction control really worked it would be on race bikes.

Oh wait, but it is!

But you already knew that, you crafty Professor, you.

And when it fails it is mess that is totally unexpected!

Do you have any statistics on the frequency of that ever happening? Would you say, in round numbers, that it was more or less than 1% of all fatal motorcycle crashes that were caused by an ABS malfunction? Way less, I would speculate.

Here's a statistical study done in 2013 by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety where they find that ABS was associated with a 37 percent reduction in fatal motorcycle crashes (with a 95 percent confidence interval). I don't know, but this seems statistically significant to me.

So, would you forgo a 1 in 3 improvement in your emergency braking to avoid a less than 1 in 100 chance of a system failure?

We do all get to make our own choices.

Hey.

...

....

Fred.

Fuck you.

More folks should tell you that. It might help you.

 

[Bounce]

This is part of the report that I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread. Apparently time moves on and some of the links no longer go directly to the target.

The following is another data point. This is from a document off of the Motorcycle Safety Foundation's web site. To read the entire report >>CLICK HERE<<
The opening text:

In 2003, the U.S. Department of

Transportation, National Highway Traffic

Safety Administration (NHTSA) in cooperation

with Transport Canada (TC) conducted a

motorcycle brake research project. The

objective of this testing program was to assess

the effectiveness of anti-lock braking systems

(ABS) and combined brake systems (CBS) on

motorcycles using various braking maneuvers

and loading conditions.

Testing was performed with six motorcycles,

representing the dual-purpose, sport, and sport

touring segments for motorcycles. The

following motorcycles were used in the tests:

1. 2002 Honda VFR 800 with ABS & CBS

2. 2002 BMW F650 with ABS

3. 2002 BMW R 1150R with ABS & CBS

4. 2002 BMW R 1150R without ABS or CBS

5. 2004 Yamaha FJR1300 with ABS

6. 2004 Yamaha FJR1300 without ABS

The closing data table:

NOTE: 2004 FJRs were available at the end of 2003.

Interesting results. The only time I ever remember needing actual maximum braking power on my '03 (no ABS) was when fully loaded during the '03 IBR and heading in to Lake City from a rural bonus location along a 2-lane black top. I crested a rise (sorry, in Florida-speak, I came down the other side of a mountain) to find a ratty old pickup truck stopped dead in the middle of the road for no apparent reason (it's a rural thing). I clamped the brakes progressively in maybe the best execution I have ever done. No lockup, no skidding, but the brakes (through a helmet and ear plugs) sounded for all the world like cicadas in heat.

I don't know if I beat their results (who knows if they did multiple attempts and recorded the average, or just one attempt each) but I do know it can toss out an anchor when it needs to.

How much a rear wheel unloads is a function of the bike's design. They all do it but some more than others. Compare a cruiser to a Buell for example. One will do stoppies if you don't take care the other will never do them but can skid the rear tire as the weight moves forward under braking.

No amount of training will be of any use in a true panic (Amygdala Attack) situation. What tends to happen in a true panic stop is the front & rear brakes are applied instantly, with no thought for 75% front/25% rear or whatever.

I do disagree with this blanket statement because proper training changes instinctual reactions. It's a proven technique used in everything from riding to law enforcement. A well trained and frequently-drilled method will become the "new instinct" during a panic. The trick is that those skills have to be practiced and maintained or they fade.

I am reminded of a specific (non-bike) instance of an LEO, off the heels of a Gunsite training session had a dust up as he entered a building. The attacker was waiting and left the officer in instinctual reaction mode. His initial report was that he fired one round and stopped the attack. Investigation revealed he had double-tapped the bad guy with a single entry wound... exactly as trained and with little/no time to think about it.

Proper braking technique is to brake quickly but progressively at first to transfer weight to the front tire before you go to maximum brake force. This will increase the front tire's traction and allow more total braking force before the tire starts to slip. Stabbing at the brake will allow the tire to begin slipping before being fully loaded and thus never achieve full brake force.

This is true with or without ABS.

This is exactly true. The only difference in both scenarios is that, without ABS, it's left to the operator to try and react in such a way (and speed) as to recover from the front wheel slip before it washes out while with ABS the brakes are pulsed by a black box so the operator never needs to learn proper technique.

 

[Fred W]

This is exactly true. The only difference in both scenarios is that, without ABS, it's left to the operator to try and react in such a way (and speed) as to recover from the front wheel slip before it washes out while with ABS the brakes are pulsed by a black box so the operator never needs to learn proper technique.

I disagree in that even with ABS it does matter if you use proper technique or not. The ABS will begin to relieve hydraulic pressure and braking force as soon as it senses wheel slip. By progressively braking you will have more weight transfer to the front tire, increase the tire's traction, and delay the initial wheel slip. If you stab at the brakes you will have wheel slip before you can develop full weight transfer. As someone else said earlier, total braking distance is more about tire adhesion than it is the power of the brakes themselves.

 

[ionbeam]

Since the FJR brakes are strong enough to lock either wheel, the limiting braking factor will be traction. Some tires adhesion will be better than others and perhaps some street riders can learn the tires capabilities and keep up with the changes in adhesion as the tire wears and tire temperatures vary throughout the day. Street/road surface? There is an unknown variability which no rider can be sure of, even on a familiar road it will change with temperature, moisture and 'grit'.

A friend of mine was the engineering project leader for GM's street car ABS project. He says that in an emergency situation, don't pussyfoot around trying to squeeze into the ABS brakes, the sooner you get ABS engaged the shorter your stopping distance will be. I'm still of the opinion that in a panic situation ABS will outperform human capabilities almost every time. Street riding is not track riding, the street has many traction factors and safety distances that are beyond any street rider's ability to anticipate. An experienced track rider will have some advantage in overall vehicle control, but the finesse of race track braking will not be possible because the street surface is inconsistent compared to a track surface. Target fixation will be way more significant than the braking action of ABS for the average rider ( such as a 3k mile per year duffer).

 

[TomInPA]

Off topic, recanted.

 

[Fred W]

FWIW, target fixation has the identically same root cause as the 'Amygdala attack' phenomenon that Donal referenced. There are three reptilian responses to true panic: Fight, Flight, or Freeze. Target fixation is a form of the latter.

But one can be trained to be less likely to "spaz out" when presented with an apparent crisis by being exposed to the situation enough times successfully that it no longer is interpreted by the hippocampus (reptilian brain) as a crisis, and instead is seen as routine. It's called "Emotional Relearning" (Google it) and it's what happens when you face your worst fears repetitively and eventually overcome them.

 

[Gitbox]

Update: I just bought a 2008 FJR which brings me into the world of Yamaha's unified ABS braking system. Whoopee!

One question: when running ionbeam's ABS self test, how loud should the ABS pump be? Not having heard it before, I am not sure what is normal. All tests pass, by the way.

Thanks.

 

[Fred W]

It's more a matter of how the lever or pedal feels than the sound. It should vibrate the lever/pedal pretty vigorously. The mechanical feedback is the pass/fail criteria. There is no other failure indication for the test.

 

[Gitbox]

Thanks.

It was pretty vigorous.