Look Ma... no cats!

[ionbeam]

Also Fred, did you check the stink factor? Riding behind my buddies that ride non-cat bikes remind me why I choose to be in front during low speed (closer following distances) ride sections. Jes askin...

We already have that covered. I've been helping Fred tune his PCIII based on the fume stream his FJR leaves behind. I can tell ya that one time he had a real rich condition on decel, no open flames please. If his bike is going to smell like that all the time now I may do more ride leading next year

 

[HotRodZilla]

Have you noticed if these moved your powerband higher up into the rev-range? That's part of the reason I haven't just taken the cats out of my OEM pipes. I like the low end torque and really don't want to move it so far up that it is kind of hard to use.

 

[Fred W]

Also Fred, did you check the stink factor? Riding behind my buddies that ride non-cat bikes remind me why I choose to be in front during low speed (closer following distances) ride sections. Jes askin...

We already have that covered. I've been helping Fred tune his PCIII based on the fume stream his FJR leaves behind. I can tell ya that one time he had a real rich condition on decel, no open flames please. If his bike is going to smell like that all the time now I may do more ride leading next year

I'll bet that the main reason that most aftermarket exhausts smell a little is because so many are running PCIIIs. That is where the fumigation emanates from. I really do need to try and get this over to DynoJet authorized tuning center and have them make me a good map.

If having a stinky exhaust prompts Alan to take the lead more often, sure seems like a win-win to me.

Have you noticed if these moved your powerband higher up into the rev-range? That's part of the reason I haven't just taken the cats out of my OEM pipes. I like the low end torque and really don't want to move it so far up that it is kind of hard to use.

Not that I have felt so far. If there is a shift upwards, it is a subtle one and (possibly) overcome by higher power across the entire band. If you read the Holeshot marketing spiel, Walker says that these pipes were intentionally not oversized much in order to retain good midrange power and torque. Probably not going to the less restrictive (aka loud) cans probably mitigates any change as well.

PS - I am still looking for a weight reference for these headers, but the previous suggestion of only 2 lbs difference for replacing the entire system was clearly not right. Here's a post on another (older) forum that says the exhaust cans alone save 12 lbs. That said, most of the weight reduction would be in the cans, so probably not much net weight loss by just losing the cats.

 

[Pepperell]

So you're telling me you didn't take it for a quick blast around the neighborhood with the cans off?? Hmmm??

 

[Fred W]

So you're telling me you didn't take it for a quick blast around the neighborhood with the cans off?? Hmmm??

Didn't even start it in the garage with no cans...

I mean, c'mon Carl...What kind of pirate do you think I am?

 

[UselessPickles]

I collected some weights of exhaust components here: https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=124446&view=findpost&p=679074

Here's some known weights of various exhaust components:

Headers

Stock 11lbs*, or maybe 14lbs**

Stock with cats removed: 9lbs***

Holeshot: 10lbs*

Muzzy: 7lbs*** (this is a single exhaust system)

Mufflers (includes connector pipes)

Stock: 10lbs* each

Titanium Remus Hexacone: 6.5lbs* each

Muzzy: 7lbs*** each (only one is used with the full system)

Notes

* Measured by myself, by standing on a standard bathroom scale while holding the parts, then subtracting my weight.

** Reported by this independent review of the Muzzy full system. The difference in the stock header weight could be due to their bike being a Gen I vs. mine being a Gen II. Or maybe their catalytic converter had accumulated some extra weight?

*** Measured by Wicked Webby (I assume with the same procedure).

You also need to put weight savings into perspective:

- The side cases weigh about 12lbs each (just weighed them). The improvement to handling/acceleration due to weight savings of an exhaust system will be less noticeable than simply taking the side cases off.

- This is a heavy bike to begin with, so it needs a bigger diet than sport bikes to get equivalent performance gains. Assuming a 160lb rider with 30lbs of gear, you need to lose 7lbs just to get the equivalent acceleration gain as adding 1rwhp. The same weight loss on a 2009 R1 would be like gaining 1.6rwhp on the R1, which would be like gaining 2rwhp on the FJR (due to the difference in hp/weight ratios). So weight reduction is only half as effective on the FJR compared to an R1. FYI - the FJR would need 190rwhp to have the same hp/weight ratio as an R1

 

[carlson_mn]

PS - I am still looking for a weight reference for these headers, but the previous suggestion of only 2 lbs difference for replacing the entire system was clearly not right. Here's a post on another (older) forum that says the exhaust cans alone save 12 lbs. That said, most of the weight reduction would be in the cans, so probably not much net weight loss by just losing the cats.

I was only referring to the difference between the stock and Muzzy headers, but including exhaust cans. I believe the full system saved me about 15lbs total with the single sided Muzzy system. Minus 8lbs from left Muffler, Minus 4lbs difference between stock and Muzzy muffler, and about 2-3lbs from the stock header to Muzzy header.

Oh, and Gen1 Mufflers are ~8lbs, Gen2 ~10lbs as UP listed. I recently weighed my extra sets. For a while I put my Gen1 cans on my '08 for shits. Slightly different exhaust sound, and 4lbs saved :lol:

 

[Bustanut joker]

I dunno, I think that's an awful amount of trouble and expense to save a few pounds.

12 bucks, a little ingenuity, and this is what I have.

Saved 6 pounds and the "reflected heat" is a non issue now.

 

[Fred W]

I was only referring to the difference between the stock and Muzzy headers,

Ooops. Sorry for my misunderstanding then, Carlson. I bet 2 lbs for the header difference is about right.

And thanks for the reference UP. So the Holeshot header is about 10 lbs.

edit - Weighed my old header on a postal/shipping scale and it comes in at 11 1/2 lbs. So 2 lbs was a good estimate. IOW... not much weight savings.

But going back the ionbeam's "goals" question, the weight loss was not the primary objective, just a nice bonus.

PS - looks like some weight savings going on with the alternator cover of that engine there, BJ.

 

[Fred W]

A little bit of a follow-up on this mod:

I got a chance to ride it a bit more yesterday afternoon. :cold: Two things became apparent. One, it does feel just a tad softer down low, like 3500 rpm and below. And Two it feels much smoother all the way to red line, which it also seems more eager to get to than before. If this were the "compromise" to be made, I'd be happy with it.

I'm betting that my PCIII fueling is too rich in those lower rpm ranges, which would explain the softness, though not necessarily why I only feel it now. But either way, it reinforces my desire to get the bike to a tuner for a custom fuel map.

I've heard that the guys at Seacoast in Derry (who absorbed what used to be BCM Ducati up in the lakes region) are pretty decent with the dyno. I'll have to swing by there soon and have a chat with them.

 

[carlson_mn]

Fred,

In my experience and everyone else who I talked to there is a bit of a flat spot from 3k-3800 rpm with the headers. I had the Muzzy which did have a crossover pipe between 2-3 but I think they're both similar in size about 1/8" bigger than stock according to Holeshot.

Mostly you just want more fuel above 4k rpm. Beneath that I ran my map at all zeros for best performance, except where all the pre-set maps had less fuel, as it is probably breathing a bit less with the larger header pipes at low rpm. I tried both the Muzzy and Holeshot header base maps and liked both, but both were way too rich down low without the O2 sensor connected. My bike wanted to bog almost coming off idle it was so rich. Like I said, I set the map to zero (stock) in the low rpms and low throttle position and it ran perfect. As a matter of fact, my bike ran GREAT without the PC3 but was a wee bit smoother in the midrange and had a bit more power on top with it.

I kept my 02 connected, as reccomended by my tuner and from my experience. I contacted Dynojet and they said they reccomend to disconnect it if you had driveability issues in the low rpms, which I did not (obviously they want their product to work if you bought it for surging, etc, which I did not have any of). They said it's fine to leave it connected and will not effect the 'performance' part of the map as they said it. Leaving it connected, the engine only listens to the O2 sensor at idle, at steady cruise (highway) and only when the throttle is at about 20% or less either way they said depending on manufacturer, everything else is base maps. With this method I had perfect driveability, great power, and averaged 40mpg having fun and more cruising on highway. My tuner said the Muzzy map was nearly spot on (I had opened up the airbox the day before the tune - I didn't really notice any difference before or after, but it did seem to reduce the low rpm flat spot a bit). He added about 3-5% more fuel on the top end around 7-9k rpm to get to a power perfect 5.0 'CO.'

If you want to try my map PM me, I will e-mail it to you. I remember back when I first put the Muzzy system on, the front end power wheelied so easily it was obvious it made more power. Just twitching the throttle in 1st gear would raise the front end up.

On my 08 I have pipes but the stock header as the buyer of my 04 paid me extra for the Muzzy system. While it's subjective with the different gearing no doubt my 04 had more mid and top end power. The taller gearing of the 2nd gen does make the top end feel better though, stretches it out. My 1g was kind of snappy which was great in the midrange but the top end was too short lived. I like the better tq of the stock header down low, just has a warmer and more consistent pull to it in the low rpms.